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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 2:29am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

 John Byrne wrote:
There was no need to ask what was "in continuity," because EVERYTHING was!

I remember being quite excited when Spider-Man showed up in a Transformers comic. 

Yet I do recall some having a problem with it. "Why hasn't anyone mentioned giant robots before?" or "Giant robots from Cybertron don't really work in the Marvel Universe."

First, how do they know Marvel characters HADN'T mentioned giant robots? Could have happened off-panel. Perhaps Jonah Jameson mentioned it over lunch or the Avengers mentioned it during a meeting. All off-panel, of course.

Secondly, how can they accept magical realms, giant aliens and various robot characters, but not the Transformers? I could understand if Transformers showed up in LAW & ORDER, but I had zero issues with them being in the MU.

I simply *accepted* it. Spider-Man teamed up with the Autobots. It happened. I enjoyed the story. Why pick holes in it?
 

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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Brian H. - some points...

ITEM: Another of COIE's biggest faults is that NOT every title and feature restarted from ground zero. Green Lantern, Batman, the Titans (including Wonder Girl), all carried on from pre-Crisis canon - so the instant ANY "contamination" of the new universe met the old universe, it was instantly screwed. (Mr. Byrne deftly avoided it in MoS when Batman met Superman... but who else even CARED?)

ITEM: For the Marvel Universe, everybody should have Gungnir and Quantum bands as well. Maybe an Ultimate Nullifier too. And the In-Betweener and Galactus should be on the team. So should the Super Adaptoid if you think his capabilities are sufficient. And Sise-Neg if he's still around.

ITEM: In the DC Universe, you could probably add the Infinity Man and the Spectre. And a passel of those ultra super mega heroes that Grant Morrison created for JLA. And let's add Duplicate Boy and Amazo to Justice League Infinity. And don't forget Mopee and Qwsp and Zook. And YOU get a power ring, and YOU get a power ring, and EVERYBODY gets a power ring!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 11:00am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Yet I do recall some having a problem with it. "Why hasn't anyone mentioned giant robots before?"

When Stan and Jack and Steve started "world building" and established that the Hulk and Spider-Man lived in the same reality as the FF, it did not occur to me to ask why none of them had been mentioned before in each other's books.*

-------------

* Except the Hulk, who had been mentioned in FF5 -- AS A COMICBOOK CHARACTER!!

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 11:10am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

The fun is a balance between the same reality but almost always different adventures. When, for example, the Lizard debuted and threatened to (er) swamp the world with "super-powerful lizard army," that peril was properly Spider-Man's alone to deal with. How not fun if our hero had an emergency button eliciting the help of Thor or Dr. Strange or the FF at the drop of a hat?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Something many modern fans do not understand! Every book is not THE AVENGERS or THE JUSTICE LEAGUE!!
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

When Stan and Jack and Steve started "world building" and established that the Hulk and Spider-Man lived in the same reality as the FF, it did not occur to me to ask why none of them had been mentioned before in each other's books.*

***

Indeed.

I always say to folk that we don't see every character's moment of every day. Who's to say that Captain America or Doctor Doom haven't talked about Autobots in the privacy of their homes? Maybe J. Jonah Jameson has discussed the Autobots - in private and off-panel.

I don't know why fans worry about it.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

There is a layer of fandom that insists EVERYTHING FITS TOGETHER. I saw an extreme example of this in the form of fans who asked if the MAN OF STEEL reboot "was what Seigel and Shuster intended." They seemed convinced there was a "bible" that covered everything ever done with Superman.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I saw an extreme example of this in the form of fans who asked if the MAN OF STEEL reboot "was what Seigel and Shuster intended." 

***

Well, if they had intended it, that's some foresight, eh, given that MAN OF STEEL was published 48 years after the character first appeared? 
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Making Wonder Woman's bracelets jibe with invulnerability is a piece of cake. Sure, she's every bit as bulletproof as Superman, but she uses her bracelets and her SKILL to control the ricochets and protect everyone else around her. 

Fits perfectly with her mission of peace and gives her a cool visual that showcases her skills without throwing punches or busting out a sword. Kind of a Cap throwing his shield vibe.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 10 April 2018 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Does Wonder Woman even have a mission of peace anymore? I thought she was a hard-drinkin', hard-lovin', neck-snappin', monster killer with a war whoop and a sharpened sword ever-at-the-ready to take down any loathsome sperm-bank who looked sideways at her; a battle-hardened Amazon warrior sneering and scoffing at her lily-livered compatriots in the League for their (pshaw!) lame, weak-kneed attitude towards glorious, wonderful murder and the vengeance all women are due from the lowly man-beasts who have oppressed them so wrongly for millennia. Hack and slice, hack and slice!! Chop chop chop!! Who doesn't love the warm, rich, metallic taste of an enemy's arterial spray as they lay dying at your feet, begging for a mercy they will never receive?

Problems with the bullets and bracelets as a protective measure of innocents include A.) That sure doesn't look like anything you'd want to be anywhere near as it's happening. Those things are flying every which way. B.) All the other heroes are now bastards for not undertaking similar measures to protect the citizenry. Superman's a dick. C.) She's not been shown to be every bit as bulletproof as Superman previously, so we're either going to have to show that on a routine basis going forward or Yaay, reboot her one! more! time! and establish that from the "beginning." 

And again, why does she have to be every bit as powerful as Superman to be his "equal" as a crime-fighter? Why is she something less than he is because her power set is different? Isn't she somehow more bad-ass for being more at risk and charging ahead anyway? Or does everything boil down to the "stats" on the backs of their Magic: the Gathering cards? Are women everywhere being deprived of the heroine they deserve by not having a bulletproof Wonder Woman who can spit in the eye of that patriarchal pain-in-the-ass Superdoof and he can't say "boo" about it? Must it all be about "Separate But Equal?" Is she a drinking fountain in 1963 Alabama? We can't just let her be amazing on her terms? She has to be amazing on his as well? 

Haven't there already been a couple of stories out there written to prove she can kick the ass of every JLA member with a member? Just as there have been some proving Batman can kick everybody's ass as well? She already possesses considerable advantages over Superman having magical weaponry, a lifetime of combat training, an army of Amazons, and a pantheon of Gods to back her up. She has to have everything he has and everything she has as well? Are they going through a bad divorce?

Fandom wept bitter tears for decades that women everywhere were being deprived of their birthright by having a Wonder Woman who couldn't fly. So they got that and the Invisible Jet, a fairly cool component of the legend in and of itself, was sent to go rust on the Isle of Misfit Aircraft. I'm pretty sure the bulletproof thing is already tacitly understood as an ability she has but no one talks about. She's certainly portrayed as being on par with Superman in their recent title together. We just need to start showing her walking through gunfire and yawning. Because that's what would have made that scene in her film so much better, right? If she'd been nonchalant and bored rather than brave and friggin' amazing? 

We're going to have to start demanding she get heat vision next, right? Because why should he have heat vision and she not have heat vision? How is that fair? Why do men not want women to have heat vision?? Huh?? Are they afraid of a Wonder Woman with heat vision? Well, they should be! They Should Be!! Heat Vision Now! Heat Vision Now!! Heat Vision Now!!


Edited by Brian Hague on 10 April 2018 at 9:21pm
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Drew Spence
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Posted: 11 April 2018 at 1:02am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

We'd need to assume that a super-powered-ability comes with all the stuff that makes it work. The human torch has to have some kind of resistant property - or system- cause his power can't be to just "catch on fire" as his name would suggest.

I read somewhere that Superman generates a field around whatever he's interacting with and that's how he can lift a plane by just the wing tip.

I also keep thinking there's too much "fans" being singled out. None of the weird crap that goes on in comics is for 'fans'. It's always for people who don't read comics- but read one and have problems with the basic disbelief that's needed or reality-suspended for the universe to work..

Star Wars was the worst with this. Every technical glitch, error or editing mistake must be addressed with a six-page explanation that still doesn't make any sense. And once you make an in-joke an in-joke, it gets real silly. And Star Wars is Science Fantasy that's trying to sit next to Star Trek, which is Science Fiction-Fantasy. When Star Trek goes into Tech-babble, Star Wars should just say "because the Force".
-------------
How I would design the power would have to make sense too. So, if I flew, it'd be that I generate an airpocket around me, that lifts me and propels the whole thing forward and all I feel is a slight breeze inside the pocket. No impact to my eyes, ears or breathing.


Edited by Drew Spence on 11 April 2018 at 1:03am
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Rick Whiting
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Posted: 11 April 2018 at 2:18am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Seriously, someone really needs to write a book for those fans and fans turned pro who "DON'T GET IT" that explains how the comic book medium works (or is supposed to work) in regards to the Marvel and DC superhero comics. Heck, I think that our esteem host (John Byrne) would be the perfect writer of said book since he would be honest and blunt and not pull any punches.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 11 April 2018 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Drew S. - Mr. Byrne established that Superman has a skin tight field that functions to keep him free of debris, etc. He also established, independently of that, that Superman has an ability that is more than just super strength that lets him lift a plane, as you noted, and applies to him when he's lifting something when he flies, for example. (Please note that it's been some time since I read those stories... I believe it's accurate, but don't take it as absolutely perfectly 100% correct.)

Brian H. - Wonder Woman doesn't need heat vision. See, she has Superman use his heat vision, and just reflects it off her bracelets...

There's no NEED to compare Superman and Wonder Woman, or any other heroes. Who's stronger? Who's faster? Who's tougher? It depends on the story. 

I believe such comparisons stories originated at Marvel, when the Thing would fight the Hulk, or Thor would battle Hercules, and the results were what was important to the story. And if it was conditional, or if it was a tie, then that was fine.

DC didn't do this as I recall except in one case - who's faster? The Flash or Superman?* There were two or three of these stories before someone HAD to be faster, but that's a little in the future.

*If I were Wonder Woman or J'onn J'onzz, I'd be pissed off at being left out. Who's to say one of THEM wasn't faster?

But eventually, exact standards became the norm; I think this practice started around the time of the Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe - Spider-Man can lift 10 tons, The Thing can lift 100 tons, etc.

At DC, they tried a little of this - and then all of it went to hell after the Crisis on Infinite Earths. I believe it was established by Mr. Byrne or Mr. Perez that Wonder Woman was actually MORE "powerful" than Superman at one point.

Then another crisis, another crisis, a flashpoint, a revision, a restart, a reorder because I didn't order onions on this you stupid pratt, and Supergirl is stronger than Superman, no she isn't, Wonder Woman is stronger than Captain Marvel, Batman is smarter than Will Magnus, and WHY THE HELL DO WE CARE? This is a little too meta for comics, because no story should focus on this. The Sub-Mariner is strong; Warbird is strong; J'onn J'onzz is strong; Mon-El is strong - and let it end there!

However, as Mr. Byrne would describe them, these ennui-engorged fanboys MUST have their standards and exact comparisons. And meanwhile, comics wither on the vine for good stories. But hey - we know that Thor can take a bullet, right? Surely that's more important.

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Drew Spence
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Posted: 11 April 2018 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

I always thought it was like wrestling (no, hang on, I make a good point here) where depending on momentum, characters got stronger or weaker. When wrestler X is champion, nothing works on them. When they turn heel, they have to cheat every 2 seconds or lose.

At some point I think Iceman had a belt to reign in his power because he was like the strongest thing around.

Remember when The Phoenix was tops?

I know Silver Surfer had a run where he beat everybody (including the champion)...
Lemmie see.....

Didn't Spiderman trash the X-Men?

So, I agree, it depends on what's needed for the story and I don't mind.
I actually feel like a lot of characters are amped up in strength because every company wants one of their heroes to win the 'my guy is stronger than your guy' sandbox fights.

Stay off youtube.
There's 8 million videos of characters fighting (real and animated) to settle all those debates.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 11 April 2018 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Iceman's belt that controlled his extra power was part of a systematic effort to boost the power levels of each member of the original X-Men when they were X-Factor, starting with Jean's stronger telekinesis strength upon resurrection from her pod in Jamaica Bay.

They turned Angel into Archangel (after briefly being Death). Around the same time Beast got touched by Pestilence and had a reaction that caused him to lose his intelligence then got infected again by some other villain with a mutating touch, and ended up furry, intelligent and stronger than ever. And Bobby got his extra powers and his belt in the same period. Only Cyclops was deemed already powerful enough.

I don't think extra power levels = more compelling character, but that seemed to be the thinking.

 
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David Miller
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Posted: 11 April 2018 at 11:56am | IP Logged | 16 post reply


 QUOTE:
I remember being quite excited when Spider-Man showed up in a Transformers comic. 

Yet I do recall some having a problem with it. "Why hasn't anyone mentioned giant robots before?" or "Giant robots from Cybertron don't really work in the Marvel Universe."

That issue of Transformers was one of the first comics I bought at age 12. My problem (ultimately) was how Spider-Man's appearance, the Savage Land setting, and Circuit Breaker's SECRET WARS II cameo, all teased an epic confrontation with the greater Marvel universe, along the lines of what we saw in the last issues of Moench and Trimpe's GODZILLA comic. Such a missed opportunity.

 QUOTE:
* Except the Hulk, who had been mentioned in FF5 -- AS A COMICBOOK CHARACTER!!

Backup stories about the Bullpen were one of those running gags I didn't particularly love when it ran into me, but seeing how JB teed off the idea with the unfortunate souls working for Dollar Comics in NEXT MEN makes me wonder about the potential for a more extended DAMAGE CONTROL/GOTHAM CENTRAL-style book based on the travails of working for Marvel Comics in the Marvel Universe .
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 11 April 2018 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Eric Sofer wrote: "Wonder Woman doesn't need heat vision. See, she has Superman use his heat vision, and just reflects it off her bracelets..."

A woman become dependent upon a man for her heat vision? I don't THINK so... Women are strong, powerful beings in their own right and do not need to rely upon MEN for anything, especially their heat vision!! Remember, a woman with heat vision needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle to escape a woman with heat vision...! Or something like that.

I actually did come up with a way for Wonder Woman to have heat vision, by the way. If she were to grasp her magic lasso, which is lit with the fires of Hestia's hearth, remember, she could channel the magical flames through her body and direct them through her eyes or hands, setting whatever she chose ablaze with flames that could not only destroy but also strip away any disguise or deception, burning the object or person down to their most basic, truthful core. A wave of Wonder Woman's hand, a flash of her golden, fiery eyes, and the thin, deceitful veneers masking Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne from the prying eyes of the world, would burn away, revealing the super-heroes underneath! 

She could thusly expose robotic impostors, shape-shifting aliens, and the like with a casual glance, making her heat vision even cooler than Superman's more basic, garden-variety type. Ha! Take that, you patriarchal pretenders! In your face, losers!!

E.R.A. in the J.L.A! Heat vision now! Heat vision now!!

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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 11 April 2018 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Guys, it's very simple.

Wonder Woman got shot in a recent issue of JUSTICE LEAGUE. I don't know if it was a "special" bullet or not -- I haven't read the issue yet -- but you can be sure that it wouldn't have affected Superman. 

I really don't like that. Diana should be nearly Superman's equal. For that matter, I don't like it that she's always brandishing a sword and shield these days. She never needed those before. 

Diana should NEVER appear weak compared to Superman. Ever. It is, in fact, sexist, even if unintentionally.

JB understood this during his WONDER WOMAN run, but subsequent writers, or most of them (Gail Simone definitely an exception, and Phil Jimenez too), don't get it.
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David Miller
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Posted: 11 April 2018 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

If gunshots don't hurt Wonder Woman then "Bullets and Bracelets" becomes pointless and without risk.


Edited by David Miller on 11 April 2018 at 5:58pm
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 12 April 2018 at 11:00am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

The point of "Bullets and Bracelets" is...to look cool. To prove how skillful Diana is. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 April 2018 at 11:07am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

It's also to mute her a bit -- not quite as strong as Superman, cuz she's a girl -- and also introduce the bondage element!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 April 2018 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

...Superman has a skin tight field...

We all do! It's what keeps us from being constantly covered in a layer of dust and grime. Superman's is stronger.

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Warren Scott
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Posted: 14 April 2018 at 5:32am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

I think some have missed the point of what Brian was saying. Wonder Woman doesn't have to be as powerful as Superman to be a great character. No one expects Batman to be equal to Superman.
As for the Spider-Man/Transformer story, if other readers really have to justify it, they could think of it as taking place in a universe where both exist. That's how the creators of the old Spidey/Superman team-ups approached it.
There are a lot of books where classic characters such as Sherlock Holmes and Dracula meet and no one questions it.
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Warren Scott
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Posted: 14 April 2018 at 5:48am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

One more thing: Aquaman's old trick of calling on aquatic life for help was very much like Tarzan's ability to communicate with jungle animals. It may seem unrealistic now but it wasn't just him "talking" to fish.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 April 2018 at 6:16am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

One of the most destructive words that have infiltrated superhero fandom is "realistic". I'm not really sure when it started, tho in the earliest days of convention attending I noticed some folk who demanded "realism" at the same time they were talking about characters who fired energy beams from their eyes, or picked up buildings, or came from alien planets.

As the story goes, Richard Donner, when directing SUPERMAN - THE MOVIE, posted signs on the sound stage reading "THINK VERISIMILITUDE". In other words, believability rather than "realism".

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