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Michael Penn
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Joined: 12 April 2006
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| Posted: 16 May 2018 at 6:41am | IP Logged | 1
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Co-creator is definitely the most accurate epithet in re Marvel and perhaps comicbooks published by anyone.
And yet, Kitty Pryde did begin with John Byrne. That doesn't erase what Chris Claremont did with the character, of course. And she may have evolved so far from what John Byrne wanted that his ultimate contribution as a co-creator has been significantly minimized. Still... it began with him. Without Ditko, the specific amazing world-beloved character of Spider-Man would not exist, absolutely. To acknowledge that Stan had the initial conception of some kind of Spider-Man character does not detract from that. This anti-Stan mania that seeks to cut down either his having had the original spark of an idea for characters or his contributing majorly to the subsequent development of characters is most noxious.
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Adam Schulman
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Joined: 22 July 2017
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| Posted: 16 May 2018 at 7:19am | IP Logged | 2
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By the way, if anyone who read Alan Moore's 1963 ever wondered why it reads the way it does, it's because Moore really does believe that "Kirby did everything and Stan Lee did nothing" where Lee-Kirby Marvel comics are concerned. Moore's been explicit about this in interviews. He thinks Ditko did "everything" on AMAZING SPIDER-MAN too.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 16 May 2018 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 3
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Stan and Jack had a perfect synergy. The whole was greater than the sum of the parts. Neither had such great success on his own as they did together.
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Cory Vandernet
Byrne Robotics Member
Henchman
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| Posted: 16 May 2018 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 4
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I agree that Stan and Jack brought out the best in each other. I think that Jack would take whatever plot he was given, verbal or otherwise and amplify by 10. I believe Stan has stated on occasion that Jack give him more than he asked for, and probably because of that Stan would up his game.
I think you can get a pretty good idea of what Jack brought to the table just by looking at the 2nd FF book of the early 60s. Strange Tales 101-134 (published the same time as FF 7-40) starred The Human Torch and the Thing with Reed and Sue from time to time, the issues that were plotted by Stan with artists Dick Ayers and Bob Powell were pretty dull. The issues that Jack penciled had the same snap his books in the FF did at that time.
Edited by Cory Vandernet on 16 May 2018 at 12:51pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
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| Posted: 16 May 2018 at 12:45pm | IP Logged | 5
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Those six 1963 comics were a fun read, especially some of the fake ads, but it'll probably be ten years before I can enjoy them again. There was some kind of online supplement about them that was taking it too far in my opinion and showed some real ugly bitterness about Stan Lee.If he hadn't been like he was there'd have been no 'Marvel age of comics'... Kirby and Ditko sure didn't sell the heck out of everything like Lee, or speak at colleges and on radio. Lee (okay, Leiber if you want to be pedantic) was the prime force that made it happen from a lot of batty monster comics to these valued 'properties' today. He wasn't around when captain America started, but those original trio of top characters would've been as remembered/successful now as Bulletman, Dollman, The Shield or Catman are if there hadn't been the '60s Stan Lee presents 'universe' incorporating them in.
He made you feel good about Marvel comics as a reader without being pretentious, and a lot of his humor was self-deprecating (or dissing the Distinguished Competition in a light-hearted way). It was fun, then somewhere, Roy Thomas, Denny O'Neil, Steve Gerber, things got just that bit too serious maybe? Spider-man without the wise-cracks but Ayn rand polemic... wouldn't have worked (and I love all the weird Steve Ditko creations)... The Fantastic Four without The Thing complaining about Yancey Streeters to cut the pathos of his situation (you have to go back to the Newsboy Legion or something in Kirby to detect much of that kind of humor). Most solo Kirby comics to me, though chock full of some great big meaty concepts, suffered from a lack of lightening or balance.
If Alan Moore is a one-trick deconstruction pony of superheroes, Stan's one trick was to jazz them up to not be too serious (like the old Binder & Beck Captain Marvels were) and fun reads, where you want to read the dialogue where with Gardner Fox it was a bit of a trudge sometimes if he got wordy. You can't really build on Moore, but look at how people built on Stan Lee... onward and upward.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Joined: 30 April 2004
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| Posted: 16 May 2018 at 1:54pm | IP Logged | 6
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Michael Penn wrote:
| What about the other Lee co-creations? Stan says he first brought the concepts of Daredevil to Everett and Iron Man to Heck, for example -- that's not clear? Other non-Kirby characters -- unclear? Hawkeye, Black Widow, Captain Mar-Vell? Kingpin, Rhino, Abomination? Etc.? |
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Iron Man is another one that's in dispute as far as who came up with the initial concept. Kirby was involved in the creation of the character in some capacity, and I believe he claimed to have originated the concept.
It's likely Stan did come up with the initial idea for some characters. All I was saying is that for the major Marvel characters created by Lee and Kirby, it's unclear who came up with the initial idea because they disagreed. I was responding to your post saying that (with the exception of the Silver Surfer) no character originated with the artist, they all originated with Stan. That is what Stan says. But since Kirby said otherwise and there is no conclusive evidence proving or disproving either of them, it is unclear who came up with the initial ideas.
Ultimately, I don't think it's a big deal who came up with the initial idea. Both guys contributed significantly contributed to the development and fleshing out of the ideas.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 16 May 2018 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | 7
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It should be noted that Stan gave full credit to everyone, in books like ORIGINS OF MARVEL COMICS and SON OF ORIGINS, and he did so close enough to the original publications that his memory can probably be trusted. Jack's expanding claims came years later, after decades of metaphorical poisons being dripped in his ear.
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Matt Hawes
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| Posted: 16 May 2018 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | 8
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I always find it ironic that Stan Lee, the man responsible for standardizing the credits in comic book publications in a time where credits were rarely given is the same guy the detractors want to demonize as if he hogged all the credit.
Gee, what editor let this cover go to press, with all them credits to other people than Stan Lee?...
Sigh. Well, this debate is like politics in that each side in usually so entrenched in their beliefs as to not give an inch on the other side. Somehow, though, it's not enough to acknowledge that Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Wally Wood, etc, contributed to the works, his detractors seem intent on robbing him of ANY legitimate contributions.
It's pathetic when an anti-Stan piece acts like he had no true input, then criticizes him for ignoring Kirby's notes. So, which is it? Did Stan add his own spin to a tale, or did he just stamp his name on the books? Double sigh.
I even have a friend who takes the anti-Stan stance, and acts as if Stan just took credit, yet will mock the stories from Bullpen members of how Stan would jump up on a table and act out a scene he's describing to his artist. Um, that is storytelling. Regardless of how unconventional of a way of communicating a plot to an artist, that is more proof of his contribution to a story.
We wouldn't have had Marvel as we know it without Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby, OR Stan Lee. There doesn't have to be a villain. And if the major criticism against Stan is one of not giving proper credit, then it is mostly unfounded. Hell, Stan even credited the letterer and the colorist! How many publishers before him did that?
That's my two cents on the matter. None of us here will be the ones to resolve the matter, anyway. And some origins of who created exactly what are forever lost to time, and no matter how much "detective" work is put into researching the matter, it remains only speculation to those of us that were not there.
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Greg Kirkman
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Joined: 12 May 2006
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| Posted: 16 May 2018 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | 9
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The fact of the matter is that most mass-media endeavors are a collaborative process. It’s usually not a black-and-white thing, in regards to who did what. Especially when the Marvel Method of plot-pencil-script factors into it.
People seem far too eager to try and compartmentalize the creative process, rather than acknowledging that it can be a messy thing. You can’t always create a handy pie chart to break down one person or another’s specific contribution to the final product. Without Stan, you don’t have the Fantastic Four. Without Jack, you don’t have the Fantastic Four. It’s not an all-or-nothing situation. To look at it that way is unfair, unrealistic, and incredibly short-sighted. End of story.
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Christopher Frost
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Joined: 24 October 2016
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| Posted: 16 May 2018 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | 10
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" It’s not an all-or-nothing situation. To look at it that way is unfair, unrealistic, and incredibly short-sighted."
And yet, that is how most people on the internet approach any kind of discussion. No wonder humanity is doomed.
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Rebecca Jansen
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| Posted: 16 May 2018 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | 11
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"Stan even credited the letterer and the colorist! How many publishers before him did that?"
Great point (and cover)! None that I can think of, and I had at least one but usually many more '40s-'50s comics from DC, Fiction House, E.C., Quality, Fawcett, Dell, Fox, Avon, M.E., St. John, Ajax-Farrell, Standard, Classic Comics, Charlton, and Lev Gleason.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 17 May 2018 at 4:22am | IP Logged | 12
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Roger Stern randomly finding that typed plot in Stan's old desk (complete with elements KIRBY didn't draw) is pretty conclusive to me. I think there needs to be a differentiation between the act of CREATION and the (often extended) act of DEVELOPMENT. I can create a new super-hero in five minutes (or less!) but it might take a week, a month, a year--ten years!--to actually do something with that character. But without that initial act of creation, there would be nothing to develop. To say that Stan Lee was probably the driving force behind the initial creative idea should take nothing away from the ten years that Kirby worked on the 100+ issues he crafted. (And if we're looking at time put in, I know Kirby was mostly doing layouts then and could maybe draw a whole issue in a week--but how long did Stan put in on each issue, developing the personalities and making the script entertaining? 3 or 4 days? Maybe the actual hours put in between the two was pretty even. Joe Sinnott probably spent more time on each issue than either Stan or Jack!)
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