Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum Page of 4 Next >>
Topic: "I’d Been Much Happier If She Stayed Dead." Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16428
Posted: 19 May 2018 at 10:49pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply


When mentioning the origins of the Dark Phoenix story line in the interview, JB's name in the interview is conspicuously absent, however Chris Claremont does talk about the return of Jean Grey as if it was pretty much JB's own idea. And the quote I use for the thread title, "I'd Been Much Happier If She Stayed Dead," doesn't really go with how Claremont handled things in the aftermath of Jean's death.

In the interview, Claremont sort of addresses this by saying he did such stories teasing Jean coming back to show that no character was safe from dying. However, only one story really did that, the one with Storm and Doctor Doom. Claremont's other teases were clearly a way to sort of have Phoenix return, or toy with that notion.

We have the Storm story, then Kitty brings up Phoenix as a character in her fairy tale issue of "Uncanny X-Men", then we have Kitty posing as Phoenix in space against the Shi'ar, then we have the Uncanny X-Men and New Teen Titans cross-over, then we have "Dark Xavier," in "X-Men and The Micronauts" (not Jean, but still a way of resurrecting her memory for a story), the the whole Madelyne Pryor fake-out storyline... WHEW!

Claremont says he would have been happier if Jean/Phoenix stayed dead, but he couldn't leave the memory of her alone, himself.

Oh, and something I must note about the SYFY interviews is their poor choices, sometimes, on what graphics and comic book images to use for references in the interview. We saw this with JB's interview, where they use art and pages from stories JB did not work on, and we see similar things in this interview video. I did note, also, that a colored version of a  commission piece by JB made its way into the video.

I also note that even in this day and age, interviewers and such still neglect to use the term "co-creator" when introducing a writer or artist who collaborated on creating a character. These sort of things lead to confusion as to how a character was created, and usually the comic creator gets flack (ala, Stan Lee) for the omissions from interviewers, publications, etc.

I posted this thread on the main forum since this discussion is more about comics even though the link is to a video interview.

Anyway... thoughts?
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Jeff Scott
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 November 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 238
Posted: 20 May 2018 at 1:28am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I never liked the whole Madelyne Pryor/Jean lookalike storyline so early on after Jean died.  And then Scott immediately marries Madelyne??  In the early stages I don't believe Madelyne was conceived as a clone (right?).  Lazy writing IMO. 

And yeah, Claremont's comments about being happier if Jean stayed dead really does conflict with his actions after.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mario Ribeiro
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 18 June 2016
Location: Brazil
Posts: 474
Posted: 20 May 2018 at 5:51am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Yeah, sorry, but I agree with him here (I do have problems with parts of this interview, though). And this isn't about Claremont vs. Byrne, the problem was what happened to her in other people's hands. X-Factor was a big mistake (nostalgia for a team that was long gone). I liked Phoenix better than Jean Grey, and by the way, I hate the fact that she became known as Jean Grey ever since (this only worked with Kitty Pryde). I never cared for Madelyne either (it annoyed me that every X-Man reacted like she looked exactly like Jean, when she clearly didn't), but it was the status quo and we all know how that was handled.

But above all, I hated two things about it, that have nothing to do with Claremont or Byrne. First, the whole "I was dead but I got better" thing got out of control soon after. Now, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Wolverine and Jean Grey (again) all spent some time out being dead. Not sure if Cyclops and Xavier are back yet.

Second, the ressurection of Phoenix. In the original story, be it Byrne's original version or Claremont's published take, Phoenix killed herself, right? That was the end. She was gone! Well, she got better too and she keeps coming back like a song. I don't know everything that happened, but I have read some recent X-Men stories in which it was clearly stated that Phoenix had possessed Jean and made her do all those Dark Phoenix things and now she wants to posses others! Phoenix became as boring as Apocalypse.

So yeah, I wish she stayed dead too.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16428
Posted: 20 May 2018 at 6:19am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Mario, it's not that I don't agree with what Claremont said, it's that what he said does not match up with what he did. The point I'm making is that he is the one who wouldn't let Phoenix die.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132232
Posted: 20 May 2018 at 6:31am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Chris needs to go back and read the stories he wrote after Phoenix died, AND the ones he wrote after Jean Grey was brought back. Kurt Busiek's suggestion, the one I followed, was that Jean and Phoenix were separate entities. It was Chris who did everything he could to mush them back together, just as it was Chris who'd used Phoenix so many times after the death -- including as a villain in the X/Titans crossover -- that the joke around the office had become that Phoenix was the least dead character Marvel had!
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mario Ribeiro
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 18 June 2016
Location: Brazil
Posts: 474
Posted: 20 May 2018 at 6:35am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Well, it's been too long since I read those issues (but I did read them a lot), but I think by the time Jean returned, Claremont was quite happy with his own Phoenix (Rachel). I think Jean came back exactly when he finally let her rest (but I may be wrong).

On the other hand, by getting her back at least we were spared of the grown-up children of Phoenix and Magneto trying to kill the X-Men. So maybe it was for the best after all.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132232
Posted: 20 May 2018 at 6:45am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

How do you figure a new Phoenix is "letting her rest?" As I recall that just created an is-she-or-isn't-she dynamic.

Chris had so diluted the death by constantly picking at the scab, that when I heard Kurt's idea (via Roger Stern), my thought was Sure! Why not!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Mario Ribeiro
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 18 June 2016
Location: Brazil
Posts: 474
Posted: 20 May 2018 at 7:33am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Yeah, I admit I don't remember that era that well. It's been too long. And anyway I only read those issues in Portuguese, and I have no idea how faithfully they were translated or edited. Usually, it was good enough. Usually.

Anyway, my problem was not really that she came back or how she came back, but what happened after. The fact that I was enough of a kid to read it all even if I didn't care for X-Factor probably doesn't help. It was something I felt I had to swallow. And those damn crossovers didn't help.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132232
Posted: 20 May 2018 at 7:51am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

If there was one miscalculation on my part, in resurrecting Jean, it was failing to factor (pun intended) in how much damage would be done by later writers, all of whom wanted a piece of the Dark Phoenix Saga.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric White
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1066
Posted: 20 May 2018 at 8:19am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I don't know if any of this is true but I was reading an article where it was claimed Dark Phoenix was supposed to die in issue 135 but then Jim Salicrup decided to split the story into two issues so she was supposed to die in issue 136, then minds were changed and she was going to live until Shooter got involved. 

I loved the original storyline but all the stuff after was too much, especially the X-Men and Teen Titans book. Now it's been regurgitated and spit back out so many times by so many different writers it's become a joke as to how fast they can redo the storyline. 

As far as Claremont goes, I take whatever he says with a huge grain of salt, especially after seeing an interview where he claims he came up with the Days Of Future Past storyline to show how tough the Sentinels can truly be against the X-Men.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132232
Posted: 20 May 2018 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I don't know if any of this is true but I was reading an article where it was claimed Dark Phoenix was supposed to die in issue 135 but then Jim Salicrup decided to split the story into two issues so she was supposed to die in issue 136, then minds were changed and she was going to live until Shooter got involved.

•••

Nope. Chris and I had no plans to kill Phoenix. We were going to lobotomize her, psychically, so she could come back as a recurring villain. No plans to split the story up in any way. 137 and 138 were fully penciled and scripted.

Then Shooter stepped in to demand we change the ending he'd previously approved, and send Phoenix "to a prison asteroid to be horribly tortured for all eternity." That sounded to me more like a misogynistic Legion of Superheroes story than anything that belonged in X-MEN, so I spoke the words that will live in infamy: "F**k that, I'd rather kill her!"

This is one of the instances in my career when I wish I'd been gifted with prescience. If we'd done as Shooter demanded, we would only have needed to wait a few months, until the Eye of Sauron moved on, and then we could have rescued Jean and gone on with what we originally intended.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Jason Scott
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 August 2012
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1167
Posted: 20 May 2018 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

"...I never cared for Madelyne either (it annoyed me that every X-Man reacted like she looked exactly like Jean, when she clearly didn't)..."
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------


Thank you Mario! Even as a teen this confused me. Paul's Smith's Madelyne Pryor looks nothing like JB's Jean Grey! It's always seemed like I was the only person to have that issue.
Back to Top profile | search
 

Page of 4 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login