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Adam Schulman
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Joined: 22 July 2017
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| Posted: 21 May 2018 at 9:06am | IP Logged | 1
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I didn't mind Jean being brought back. I just thought it should've been done later than it was so that Claremont could be forced to get rid of (in whatever way) Rachel Summers first.
Of course, if Jean had been brought back in, say, 1986 rather than earlier, different people than Roger Stern and JB would've executed (so to speak) Jean's return, so I don't know how well it would've read.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 11:20am | IP Logged | 2
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At bottom, I wish the whole world would FORGET Dark Phoenix. The story is 38 years old! There are people grumbling and rumbling about it who weren't even BORN when it happened. Let It Go!!!!!!!
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 3
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I guess, in a way, Jean Grey is going to be tortured for all eternity?!
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Jeff Scott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 November 2016
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 12:43pm | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
| I wish the whole world would FORGET Dark Phoenix |
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In 100 years someone will still be talking about Dark Phoenix.
Edited by Jeff Scott on 22 May 2018 at 12:44pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4530
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 5
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"I guess, in a way, Jean Grey is going to be tortured for all eternity?!"
Yeah, and I was so happy to see her back safe without any "power singing a song within" her. :^(
They should've had this Phoenix entity reform itself like the sonic Klaw dude as it was obvious it didn't need a person and hadn't possessed one in the first place... it would know it wasn't Jean Grey ever after reforming and been a baddie in whatever shape (ala Venom). Putting Jean/Marvel Girl and the Phoenix thing together 'for real' feels kind of ugly, like her killing Cyclops and Professor X in that one movie that didn't even make use of the big firebird visual element. They just don't think these things through or in the long term very well sometimes do they?
I can tell you I've not been buying any of these more recent Phoenix titled comics no matter how good the art. I have bought Uncanny X-men #125-137 as many as three times however.
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 22 May 2018 at 12:46pm
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Brian Hague
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Joined: 14 November 2006
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| Posted: 23 May 2018 at 12:29am | IP Logged | 6
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I believe Claremont's expressing that wish today is a case of getting what you wished for and then regretting it. Back in the day, he played the emotional card of Jean's Death at every hand, and kept looking for clever ways to reference the character, with Madeline Pryor being a particularly odd direction to go, especially without an endgame in place.
Since she was brought back, Claremont and the rest of us have had ample opportunity to regret the decision, just as we have the various Gwens, Goblins, Buckies, and what not that publishers keep digging out of the graveyards to entertain us.
A simple death would have been more merciful. Unfortunately, Marvel is not in the business of mercy, but commerce, and characters are what they sell. You can't sell her if she's moldering in a crypt somewhere.
Okay, wait, these days, actually you can...
But it's awkward. "Charles, do you mind if I eat these legs? I mean, if you're not using them..."
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132303
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| Posted: 23 May 2018 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 7
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A simple death would have been more merciful. Unfortunately, Marvel is not in the business of mercy, but commerce, and characters are what they sell. You can't sell her if she's moldering in a crypt somewhere. •• It was nostalgia, not commerce, that triggered the return of Jean Grey. Kurt Busiek's rather brilliant suggestion that Jean and Phoenix were actually two different entities had been floating around for a while, and when X-FACTOR was in the works, I suggested it as a way to get the full original X-Men group back together. In order that this could be accomplished before the first issue of X-FACTOR, it was decided that the return -- not, strictly speaking, a resurrection now -- be handled in the Avengers and FF titles. Unfortunately, it was not long after this that I announced my intention to take on Superman, and so all of a sudden the FF issue that had passed with 100% approval was deemed terribly flawed, and had to be substantially redrawn and rewritten -- not by me. (It tells us something about the dynamics at Marvel in those days, that Mike Hobson, Shooter's boss, wished me luck when he heard about the Superman assignment, saying that anything that was good for DC would ultimately be good for Marvel.)
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
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Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 23 May 2018 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 8
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I LOVE the unused pages from FF # 286, with Phoenix being an inherently malevolent entity, and Jean using her psi-powers to imprint her own personality and memories upon Phoenix so as to prevent it from wreaking death and destruction in a powered-up copy of her body. Phoenix slowly going bad in X-MEN is thus revealed as the entity’s true nature slowly asserting itself.
WAY better than the published version, with Phoenix being some kind of cosmic fairy-godmother who comes along at just the right moment to grant Jean’s fondest wish. As JB notes, this nonsensical change to the story was apparently Shooter’s punishment for JB taking the SUPERMAN job. What a shame.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 23 May 2018 at 5:19pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 23 May 2018 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 9
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Chris objected at every turn to killing Phoenix. One of the reasons he kept bringing her back. He complained that it was unfair that Phoenix had to be punished, when, say, Galactus did not. We did the best to explain to him that Galactus was not EVIL (a difficult concept for some, but clearly stated by the Watcher in the first Galactus story). So, part of what Chris did over the years was try to convince everyone that Phoenix was not evil, that it was corrupted by its human host. He jumped at the chance to rewrite my FF pages, to ram that point home. And I, of course, had my name removed from the credits. (Shooter tried to do an end run there, by telling me I would not get royalties -- for what was sure to be a big seller -- if my name was not on the book. "Then I guess I won't get royalties," I said. Little thing called "principles".)
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Greg Kirkman
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| Posted: 23 May 2018 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | 10
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So, part of what Chris did over the years was try to convince everyone that Phoenix was not evil, that it was corrupted by its human host.++++++++
That is such an annoying inversion of your idea. I vastly prefer the idea that it was a copy of Jean’s innate humanity and heroism that kept Phoenix in check for so long, while the real Jean was in stasis. As you noted in COMIC CREATORS ON X-MEN, that’s a very Stan Lee idea: even a copy of the human spirit is capable of heroism. And Jean had always been depicted as a good, kind, and heroic young woman.
Of course, the subtext of the original, pre-retcon Dark Phoenix story was the sexual and emotional awakening of a young woman (with her dark impulses overwhelming her), and I now find myself wondering if that was a purely Claremontian idea, too.
The idea of Jean’s humanity somehow tainting the benficient Phoenix entity is just stupid. I believe that the 90s cartoon went a similar route, with the entity (treated as a separate entity from the start) becoming addicted to human sensations.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 23 May 2018 at 5:27pm
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Eric Jansen
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Joined: 27 October 2013
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Posts: 2292
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| Posted: 23 May 2018 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | 11
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It's the Spielberg effect: Aliens (and dinosaurs and sharks and robots, etc.) are always in the right; it's the humans who are bad.
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Eric Sofer
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Joined: 31 January 2014
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| Posted: 24 May 2018 at 7:38am | IP Logged | 12
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<Wearing my shocked face> I'm afraid I've never seen anything about the "real" FF #286 or the tale related above. Is that in the FAQs and I've managed to miss it? Or a post that I've overlooked? I'd really be interested in knowing the true story.
I think Shooter's actions prove Lord Acton correct, but what a horrible way to express them. In a melancholy way, I wonder how that era would have turned out had Archie Goodwin been E-i-C at the time instead of Shooter. A renaissance, perhaps...
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