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Don Berner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 July 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 75
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Posted: 22 May 2018 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 1
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There are many circumstances under which it requires a moral strength to be willing to sacrifice ones principles and kill, but comics generally refrain from presenting those and characters like the Punisher who do so somewhat indiscriminately are far from heroic. I thought what JB did in his last issue of Superman with the phantom zone villains and Superman's reaction to his own actions were great.
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7467
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Posted: 22 May 2018 at 11:39am | IP Logged | 2
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Killing an enemy, traditionally, was the red line. Heroes did not kill.
As Don notes, JB did an entire arc showing how traumatic that decision was for Superman--AND IT SHOULD BE! Superman faced an impossible moral quandary and resolved it the best he could, but that impossible decision wrecked him. He suffered over that choice. If only other "heroes" shared that moral conviction...
In short, JB did it perfectly.
Killing should never be free of consequences; only villains ought to be willing to gun down a foe, usually out of expedience. (Worth noting that Doom, perhaps one of the greatest villains ever created, is not a casual murderer and does not seek to KILL Reed Richards.)
Heroes shoulder many burdens. Ethics and a code of conduct are one of them, or always *should* be. Else the "hero" is just the guy standing when the smoke clears and there's nothing intrinsically heroic about that.
Edited by Andrew Bitner on 22 May 2018 at 11:41am
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7467
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Posted: 22 May 2018 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 3
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And FWIW, Punisher will always be a Spider-Man villain to me.
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Thomas Woods Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1356
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Posted: 22 May 2018 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 4
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Superman faced an impossible moral quandary and resolved it the best he could, but that impossible decision wrecked him. He suffered over that choice.
---
It's been forever since I read it, but he was more torn up about executing them, or was it that they killed off an entire planet?
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4410
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Posted: 22 May 2018 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 5
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There used to be long discussions about Wolverine seeming to casually kill a guard in the savage land (around #114-116 of X-Men). I think I noticed 'the culture' had really shifted when people took Rambo in the movie First Blood as a hero and this lead mind-blowingly to kids pajamas and a cartoon series. I remember in those Reagan years too thinking how strange it was to see little boys in camouflage pattern clothing or with Marines styled crew-cuts... people were saying "are they trying to get them ready for something?"
I remember being really impressed with The Planet Of The Apes (original) because of the line "Ape Shall Not Kill Ape", which showed they had some high ideals, but we also have "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and as we saw in Apes some Gorilla is probably destined to break every rule at some point!
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 22 May 2018 at 12:37pm
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7467
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Posted: 22 May 2018 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 6
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Thomas- Superman was horrified that they'd killed a whole world.
But he was more torn up emotionally over his seeing no other way to proceed than executing them-- they were too powerful to be left there, with Zod promising he would follow Superman to his Earth and do the same thing there.
It was a risk Superman refused to take, and he executed them, but he was in anguish for months afterward.
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7467
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Posted: 22 May 2018 at 1:03pm | IP Logged | 7
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As for Wolverine, he was brought into the X-Men so that Xavier could keep a close eye on him and put a check on his activities. He DID kill--and was considered a potential threat to the team.
His subsequent popularity shows how far the readership had strayed from the classic definition (and appreciation) of heroes.
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 8
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Whether in comics or film, my favorite superheroes have always been Superman and Captain America. Their ethics and morality pay a huge part of why they are my favorites.
That said, sometimes I just want to see the bad guys die. Give me a book or a film like the Expendables with lots of explosions and a high body count.
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Brian Hughes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 June 2015 Location: United States Posts: 292
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 9
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To me, if Batman were to be ok with killing in certain situations, there would be no way the Joker or other more vicious Bat-Villains could survive. His code keeps them alive and gives a continual chance for more stories including them.
Though it is not like Batman has not been written in the past where he has a problem causing death.
This is from Batman Annual 09 - 1985
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7581
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 10
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Here’s a take in this that I’ve been ranting about today.
My son yesterday was picked on @ school. When he said he was off to tell the teacher he was told ‘snitches get stitches’. Both parties in this exchange were eight year olds.
I have long been against the whole ‘grasses’ & ‘snitches’ crap because I see them as a power play by the guilty to shift blame to the victim. That eight year old know that phrase & are prepared to use it just saddens me to no end.
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 11
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Sadly James, a lot of today's misguided children have no problem backing up the phrase, either.
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