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Michael Sommerville
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Posted: 25 May 2018 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

This protest had lost its intent almost immediately. It became about everything but its original intent. Few are talking about Black men and polices incidents when discussing the kneeling anymore. One group made it about disrespect the other made it about free speech. No one wants compromise they just want their view to be right. No one wants to put forth solutions, deemed fair by the majority, they just want to demonize those who think different. This I am right, you are wrong, all or nothing world. 

With a change or two this protest could probably have had whole teams showing support for this cause. A protest need not be decisive, being inclusive makes it stronger. Kneeling before the anthem, and stating the reason was, a desire for change on how Black men are treated by police, could have been something the majority of players and teams could get behind. Before someone says protests need not be changed, remember the initial form of protest was changed from sitting to kneeling because the topic of disrespect was brought forth.

In my opinion, playing a game and being entertainment does not make NFL players special, when it comes to an employer/employee relationship, in the workplace. Realistically, not many places of business would allow a public display of protest in the workplace during work hours. Fewer still, if it was thought that the protest was costing that business money. As to free speech, that is curtailed in the workplace all the time. The use of profanity, derogatory language, jokes, slurs is cause for dismissal or a trip to HR in many workplaces. 

Those that see player are more than employees because they are essential to the business need to explain how all other employees are different. Without good employees business' do not often succeed .If this issue is a strong one for the NFLPA they should put their money where their mouth is. A strong union can fight for what the majority of the members feel is his or her rights. Walk out and strike if this issue, right to show public protest at work, is as important as some people who are not the players deem it. 




Edited by Michael Sommerville on 25 May 2018 at 4:28pm
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Michael Sommerville
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Posted: 25 May 2018 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

The Sterling Brown situation does give reason for protests. It was disgusting behavior by police on many levels. If what I read was true, a man, being a douche and parking across 3 handicap stalls in a parking lot, deserves no more than public ridicule and a ticket not abuse by law enforcement. 

Edited by Michael Sommerville on 25 May 2018 at 4:30pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 25 May 2018 at 4:57pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

As to free speech, that is curtailed in the workplace all the time. The use of profanity, derogatory language, jokes, slurs is cause for dismissal or a trip to HR in many workplaces.
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That is because it is specified in the work contract between employer and employee that these things are not acceptable in your place of work. If you take the job, you sign the contract and agree to that code of conduct.

Clearly, the NFL did not have such a rule in place, which is why they've changed the contract. But you can't change the agreement without both parties consenting. And so the freedom of speech is stepped on in, what seems to me, a manner with no legal justification.

Besides, your opinion that being entertainment does not make NFL players special is clearly flawed. The closest relations we have to the situation of the NFL and its players is the relationship between other major leagues and their players. They all have collective bargaining agreements. These things don't commonly exist in normal employer/employee relationships. Strange that.
 
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 25 May 2018 at 5:06pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

No one wants to put forth solutions, deemed fair by the majority, they just want to demonize those who think different
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A protest tends to occur when the majority are not interested in hearing about the problem. If the majority were all over the problem, there would be no need for a protest. I don't know about you, but I feel mistreatment of people by police according to the colour of their skin is wrong, no matter what the majority feel about the subject.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 25 May 2018 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

This is just conservative virtue signaling.  The NFL owners don't have any ideological 'point' they're trying to make and don't care about patriotism.  As a publicly traded company, the NFL is required by law to do everything legal to maximize shareholder profits.  Ratings for the NFL have been declining for quite some time, but they dropped off sharply during the protests with conservative pundits calling for boycotts.  A good portion of the NFL's audience and customers are on the right.  Most of the people upset about this decision haven't given the NFL a nickel in decades, and so the NFL, quite frankly, doesn't care about your opinion.  They care about pleasing their customers, which is any business's job.  I say this as someone who thinks patriotism is basically a (false) religion, personally.  But then, I'm not an NFL fan, so the NFL doesn't care about my opinion, either.

And on a pet peeve note:  This First Amendment has absolutely no relevance here.  It, and the rest of the Bill of Rights, place limits on what the government can do, not private citizens.  You have the right to say whatever you want without fear of government authorities.  You do not have the right to say whatever you want in an establishment I own, as one of my employees.  You are free to be a racist, but if you work for me, and you say racist things, even off the job site, which affect my business, I have the right to fire you.  You are free to promote any cause you like without the government stopping you or inflicting consequences upon you.  But if you promoting that cause in my business is harmful to my business, again, I can fire you.  If you come into my house and use foul language toward me and my wife, I can throw you out of my house.  So the Constitution is irrelevant here.
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Michael Sommerville
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Posted: 25 May 2018 at 5:57pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I do not think all work place rules are in a contract or need employees' approval to change. Maybe this one is in the NFL but I would assume the lawyers would have been instructed to look at the legal liability. If it is not legal it will be reversed I must be bad at giving clear thoughts, I was trying to articulate that even if the majority is behind the thought of this protest, the form is dividing. A protest is stronger when more stand with you, not when you alienate some of those that believe in your cause.

I would hope the, "I don't know about you" was not to insinuate that to disagree with the venue of a protest means a person can not support the reason for the protest. I think in a previous post I agreed that some police behavior is disgusting and that protests are a positive step to change it.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 25 May 2018 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

 So the Constitution is irrelevant here.
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Not true. If a private company fires you for your religion, it's a first amendment issue. Nothing to do with government. Why is it any different for freedom of expression?
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 25 May 2018 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Michael, please forgive me if I have misread your comments and intentions.

I do actually agree with your point that the protest could be have been more effective if they had got everyone on board in one go, though I think this perhaps meanders into the realm of the ideal.

I'm guessing that Kaepernick's original action was somewhat spontaneous. With hindsight, yes, it might have been more effective had it been more planned -- but in a way it gives it more credibility that it wasn't planned and seemed to come straight from the heart, without recourse to legal counsel or a planning committee of oversight.

My point about the majority bit, was that you seemed to make an equivalence between those protesting and those who oppose the protestors, saying that each side wants to demonize the other. Your suggested alternative was that both sides look to a majority preference. But I contend that there is not equivalence here between those two parties. Those protesting were doing so against a perceived injustice, not seeking to demonize a political spectrum or a strata of society. If this justice does indeed exist, then there is no need to seek a majority opinion. In such a case, the injustice needs to be redressed (and attention to the problem needs to be raised until such redress occurs), no matter what the majority of opinion is. Sometimes majority opinion is in direct contravention of what is morally right.


Edited by Peter Martin on 25 May 2018 at 6:34pm
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 25 May 2018 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

No, if a company fires you for your religion, it’s illegal under laws passed by Congress.  It has nothing to do with the Constitution.  This is the whole issue with the wedding cake case.  A law was passed that added sexual  orientation as a protected class.  The bakers are saying that that law is invalid because it violates their freedom of religion.  The Bill of Rights only restricts the government.  Doesn’t apply here in the least.
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Michael Sommerville
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Posted: 25 May 2018 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I do think many, that are in opposition, believe it is the venue not the protest. I also believe many, quickly condemn those that feel it is an inappropriate time and place, assuming they do so for racist reasons. If players were kneeling as protest against domestic violence would there still be as large a protest to the protest? What if some players were doing it support a pro-life stance? Is the subject matter the driving force behind those that do not want to see it done during the Anthem? I do not know but look to the individuals here who disagree. Some have posted many times and I assume are appalled at police bias.  

Right or wrong, as a business the most important colour to the NFL is green. That is the colour that influenced the rule change. It was a compromise, maybe not a good one for either side of the issue .If it costs the NFL more than it makes that rule will change in a heartbeat. 


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Peter Martin
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Posted: 25 May 2018 at 7:14pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Steve, take a look at this link and scroll down to 'You are fined by your employer or institution for not standing for the national anthem.' LINK
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 25 May 2018 at 7:52pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

The protest isn't even disrupting or delaying the game though. It's such a subtle and quiet thing I can't understand what the huge offense is supposed to be, must be some hyper-sensitive fanatics is all I can make out. If they can't even do this I think that's bizarre. I have to see offensive t-shirts, tattoos and other things directed at women and women's bodies sometimes, I imagine women trying to see a doctor that will perform a termination have to run some kind of gauntlet of legally sanctioned extreme propaganda from a bunch of strangers who know no details of each person's medical or mental situation, but these thin-skinned American football fans get all out of shape because some players half kneeled? I find it to be a very humanitarian pose to bow and half kneel like that, evoking sadness in the way far too many people have been treated like Trayvon Martin (including in death during the court hearing where his friend was treated horribly and it was allowed as a defense to say he was actually armed after all, with a sidewalk). The problem is the people who would get upset by this small show of solemnity at the failings to live up to a better vision.
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