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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132131
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Posted: 26 May 2018 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | 1
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Again, being White is not just a placeholder. If I had been born Black, my whole life would have been different. So would the life of a Black James Bond.************************************************************ *********************** But would those differences mean he couldn't be a Commander in the the Royal Navy, an intelligence operative for British Intelligence and a suave ladies man who likes fast cars and martinis in the second decade of the 21st Century? ••• Nope. But that's just a superficial skimming of Bond's attributes. In the end it comes down to whether Bond is a character or a product. If the former, that he is White is as important as is the race of any Black or Asian character. If the latter, it doesn't matter. But why would any serious actor want to play a role that doesn't matter?
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 26 May 2018 at 4:03pm | IP Logged | 2
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They didn't need to be when they were created but that isn't the same thing. Erasing a character and starting over seems perfectly acceptable with white characters but is it with others? ************************************************************ ************************ I'd say they did have to be white when they were created. Do you think Superman would still be around, if in 1938 he was created as a black man? White, male, straight and implicitly Christian was the default in Western heroic fiction Non whites were for the occasional villain and comedic sidekicks.
Yeah, I think non-white characters are just as susceptible to "erasure" and reboots as any other. The latest take on Black Lighting just erased his kids. He's now off spring free. The also wiped out any previous encounters with Tobias Whale, who's oddly no longer an albino. ************************************************************ ***************** Wouldn't you say that there would be about the same lack of diversity in a Pantheon of Scandinavian Gods as a fictional African Nation? If both are based in reality but both are fictional, shouldn't the same rules apply? Cultural accuracy seems to be thrown out the window with Thor but conversely, seems vitally important to get "accurate" with Black Panther. ************************************************************ ******************** I would, but Africa is a real place. The Nine Realms aren't. People have different expectations when dealing with some place real, even when the place within that place is fictional.
Accuracy hasn't always been a priority for Marvel's portrayal of the Scandinavian Gods, though. The Warriors Three with their very non-Viking styles always bugged me. Sif's non blonde locks, and Thor's too blond locks too
The movies tend to play the Asgardians as aliens whom were worshiped as gods.
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 26 May 2018 at 4:13pm | IP Logged | 3
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Nope. But that's just a superficial skimming of Bond's attributes. In the end it comes down to whether Bond is a character or a product. If the former, that he is White is as important as is the race of any Black or Asian character. If the latter, it doesn't matter. But why would any serious actor want to play a role that doesn't matter? ************************************************************ ************************ That depends on the character. I think Bond needs to be British, but being British doesn't mean white. Being British is more important to the character. Though, maybe I'm missing the important part of the Bond character that requires him to be white.
Edited by Mike Norris on 26 May 2018 at 4:14pm
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Michael Sommerville Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 417
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Posted: 26 May 2018 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | 4
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I will watch Idris Elba play any character and believe it, he is that good. Casting him as James Bond or Heimdall should get the same backlash from the people that denounce the casting in films like Gods of Egypt, "whats good for the goose is good for the gander".
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132131
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Posted: 26 May 2018 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | 5
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That depends on the character. I think Bond needs to be British, but being British doesn't mean white. Being British is more important to the character. Though, maybe I'm missing the important part of the Bond character that requires him to be white. ••• Creator intent? How about reading the books, or even watching the movies, and then telling us how many of them could have been presented as written if Bond was Black. And -- I'm getting tired of saying this, since it seems like it should not need to be said -- don't Black actors deserve roles that are more than the modern version of a minstrel show?
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 26 May 2018 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 6
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How about reading the books, or even watching the movies, and then telling us how many of them could have been presented as written if Bond was Black. ************************************************************ *********************** I've read all the Bond books at least once, including a several non Fleming ones and have seen all the films multiple times.They are reflective of the times they were created in I'm a fan of the character. So I'm quite familiar with how he's been presented in print and on screen. But time marches on and unless they're doing Bond as a period piece I see no reason to 100% adhere to the 1950's, 1960's or any other decade. It's the 21st Century, Bond uses smart phones and the internet and he can be black. *+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ And -- I'm getting tired of saying this, since it seems like it should not need to be said -- don't Black actors deserve roles that are more than the modern version of a minstrel show? ************************************************************ *******************' I don't see a black actor playing Bond as being a "minstrel show". They deserve any role they have the talent to play, even If that role has been played by a white actor in the past.
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Michael Sommerville Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 417
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Posted: 26 May 2018 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | 7
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Just because society is in a different place, it does not mean creations from the past need to be updated to reflect diversity. It is such a contradictory argument to say race, would not change a character if you believe, as we are told in today's climate, a white, hetrosexual, male has no understanding of growing up outside his privilege. If a person subscribes to the concept of white privilege, the creator/author, a product of the time, would have infused his, into James Bond, a product of the time, when he wrote from his own personal life experiences.
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Michael Sommerville Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 417
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Posted: 26 May 2018 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | 8
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The 21 century Bond can be an East Indian, Transsexual, Bi-sexual, feminist but would that still be James Bond. What percentage can be changed and still be the same character at its core?
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 26 May 2018 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | 9
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I think most creations from the past need "updating" when being adapted for a 21st Century audience not for the sake of diversity, but to jettison the racism, sexism and bigotry of the time they were created in.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132131
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Posted: 26 May 2018 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 10
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And treating White as interchangeable, while other races must be played as written -- that's not racist?
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 26 May 2018 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 11
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Some "white" parts are, some aren't. Hard to think of a non-white part that is since so many are/were created with the race front and center. Create a "Million playboy" or "suave secret agent" and white was pretty much the default with out even mentioning it.
Edited by Mike Norris on 26 May 2018 at 6:05pm
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Conrad Teves Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 2160
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Posted: 26 May 2018 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | 12
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Michael>>The 21 century Bond can be an East Indian, Transsexual, Bi-sexual, feminist but would that still be James Bond. What percentage can be changed and still be the same character at its core? <<
Deeply disagree. Characters are not people, they are set of ideas made to look like people. Change any of the ideas they are made of, and they are a different character. As I've pointed out before, you can remake Daniel Craig's "Casino Royale" with all the same actors, all the same dialog and action, but if you have Craig play bond with normal-person confidence, that's a different movie that's actually about something else and we haven't changed a single word. Bond's humor is now defensive, his interactions with women are now clumsier and cheesy. His ability to have sex after nearly dying and killing a bunch of people is kinda disturbing--and all we did is change one little attribute.
Personally, I don't think Bond maps well on to the 21st century. When they get around to replacing Craig, I think setting it during the 50's makes much more sense.
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