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Topic: Joker Movie? - SPOILERS begin Pg. 15 Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 11 September 2019 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 1 post reply


Rodrigo,
You have reasons that you want to see the movie. Others do not. There is no right or wrong answer here.

Sure, that's kinda my point. 

If you "don't want to" do something like, say, watch a movie, find the character sympathetic or the story relatable then... don't.

I just find that kind of reasoning (as if this particular film is being somehow forced upon people, that they're going to manipulate you into liking the character or something) bizarre. 

Sorry if anyone was offended (?). 




Edited by Rodrigo castellanos on 11 September 2019 at 11:27am
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 11 September 2019 at 11:42am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I'll put my own reaction on the latest iteration of the same character on the big screen for comparison.

I thought it was beyond awful. I thought the movie was terrible and the character's inclusion nonsensical. The characterization was way off, and the actor was terribly miscast and did a lousy job. It also greatly displeased me in a visual way, with the makeup, tattoos and gangsta wardrobe being particularly offensive.

And that's it, that's my criticism.

I didn't go out there with a tin foil hat screaming "These Hollywood hacks are trying to brainwash me into worshipping Jared Leto!" or something like that. 

That's what I find bizarre about some of the reactions to the trailers of this particular film.


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Philip Obaza
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Posted: 30 September 2019 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

For any Simpsons fans, I made a meme that feels relevant here.

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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 05 October 2019 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Well, I saw it.

It's a very difficult film to "review", and I'm still processing it. I'll split some random thoughts about it in between "comic-related" stuff and about the film itself and its possible cultural repercussions. I'll try to keep it non-spoilery but if in doubt, please add the SPOILERS tag to the thread. 

Comic-Related Stuff:

- It messes with the Batman canon in ways I didn't like. Not as bad as Tim Burton's BATMAN, though.

- It is a Joker origin movie as promised, and that's obviously problematic. It's like one of those cliched fake origin stories the Joker tells in TDK or MAD LOVE in the comics and then laughs in your face for being stupid enough to believe in it, stretched to movie length. I kept waiting for some kind of meta punchline to come, but it never did (or did it?).

- On the subject of that, the whole film is told in Arthur's perspective (Phoenix is in almost every scene of the film) and he is proven in the film as an unreliable narrator multiple times, so what things actually did happen and what didn't is pretty much open to interpretation. Very similar to AMERICAN PSYCHO in that way.

- It's basically "Psycho-Babble: The Movie", so if you're not into that kind of stuff I'd recommend you stay away.

- Despite that, the movie makes clear in various ways that Arthur is broken and irredeemable before the start of the events of the film, so what happens to him isn't a direct consequence of the abuse he faces in the early parts of the film, at least directly. When he descends into violence, the film doesn't make excuses for him IMHO. But this is a subtle message, and could be VERY EASILY misinterpreted.

- The transformation is very smooth and well done. When The Joker finally manifests, I believed. That's The Joker.

- The Thomas Wayne characterization will upset a lot of Batman fans. It works well within the context of the film, though.

- The director said this is a one time thing, with no interconnections with the DCEU and that it'll have no sequels. I hope he keeps his promise.

Film and Cultural-related Stuff:

- The film is incendiary. I'd say it's the most controversial film released by a major studio since FIGHT CLUB. I'd even say it's borderline dangerous. It'll spark discussion for years to come.

- Joaquin Phoenix's performance is incredible. Oscar material. And it's completely different from Ledger's or anyone's take. We've never seen The Joker like this before. Truly a very special character.

- The film's very good. If it weren't so directly inspired in the Scorsese films it apes (TAXI DRIVER and THE KING OF COMEDY, of which it's almost a remake of sorts) I'd even say it's a great film.

- There's a few real world social points the film is trying to make, mainly about the treatment of the mentally ill and social and economic inequality. This is kinda pretentious at times, although some of it clicks.


All in all, I enjoyed the film and will probably see it again before it ends it's theatrical run.

But, while watching it I kept thinking about something Alan Moore said regarding THE KILLING JOKE (another work I have mixed feelings about) that went something like: "It puts far too much melodramatic weight upon characters that were never designed to carry it".

This is true for this film as well.





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Mario Ribeiro
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Posted: 06 October 2019 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Still interested. Will probably watch it in a few days.
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 06 October 2019 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I doubt I will ever watch it.
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 06 October 2019 at 11:27am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Same here, Wallace. It just doesn't seem like fun time out at the movie's. 
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 06 October 2019 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply


SPOILERS from this point on.


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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 06 October 2019 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Not going to see this. What? I'm judging something without seeing it? Yes. Isn't that what reviews are for - so I don't inadvertently reward rubbish with my money? Correct.

There should be NO debate whatsoever regarding the Joker. He is meant to be, unambiguously, a villain. Period. Not a sympathetic, relatable victim. Not a symbol of the downtrodden, a symptom of the liberal elitism rampant in our society, blah, blah, blah.

This movie seems every bit the mating call of the weak, pathetic, moronic masses who want to blame everything on everyone else but themselves. A psycho-babble love note for a generation of grossly under-educated but overly "aware" man-children eager to justify their selfish behaviour.

And yes, I'm just as critical of Taxi Driver, Mean Streets, and A Clockwork Orange. All highly stylistic and visually compelling movies that ultimately glorify violence - whether they intend to or not being largely irrelevant - and are hollow at the core.

There is absolutely no need to chronicle in harrowing, realistic detail the rise of a psychopathic comic-book villain in the way the Joker movie seems to do, again, to the point of making him the object of sympathy, even a rallying point for the alt-right. At best it's titillation, at worst it's glorification, even justification.



Edited by Koroush Ghazi on 06 October 2019 at 5:02pm
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 06 October 2019 at 7:33pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Iíve spoken about it before, but I am reminded of the scene in CRACKER where Cracker talks to someone about the film BONNIE & CLYDE. 
He talks about how the film manipulates the audience into caring & routing for both until they are made to feel sad that they were caught & killed.

Cracker goes on to say, angrily, that not him. He was devastated for the victims, who had been murdered without any say, without remorse & without the audienceís empathy.

This JOKER film seems to fit that bill from what Iíve read/heard. & the fact that the director has tried to justify his film by taking pot shots @ the source material just angers me more. Justify your work without needing to knock others down.
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Greg McPhee
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Posted: 07 October 2019 at 4:34am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I won't be going to see it.

Not anything to do with it straying from the comics, etc. but the fact that it seems a pointless, needless and violence for the sake of violence film.
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 07 October 2019 at 6:18am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

A spoiler-filled review.
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