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Topic: Q For Mr Byrne: De-Uniquing’s Legacy Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Mr Byrne, if DC had never set the ball rolling with the whole de-unique "thing" many decades ago, would de-uniquing still have been inevitable at the likes of Marvel, you think? Would the bandwagon still have been created at some point?

I know this is extremely hypothetical, but thanks!
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John Byrne
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 9:04am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Altho DC certainly knocked over the first domino, they did so in an effort to give the fans what they wanted -- more and more of the same characters. It is not surprising, then, that when de-uniquing began to creep into Marvel, it was part of the increasing presence of fans-turned-pro.

Which is a long winded way of saying de-uniquing was inevitable.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 9:06am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Thank you.

It seems a shame. A Marvel UK reprint currently published a tale called SPIDER-MAN: RENEW YOUR VOWS. Possibly apocryphal, it's a future timeline where Peter Parker, Mary Jane and their daughter are all wearing costumes, spinning webs and fighting evil.

If everyone is special, then no-one is special, I feel.

Some things had a certain logic about them, in my humble opinion, e.g. Kid Flash taking after his mentor or Jim Rhodes, who is a close friend of Tony Stark, borrowing some armour.

But the proliferation of web-slingers, Hulks and so many others in recent years has made the founding heroes seem less special. I may be over-thinking it.
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Daniel Gillotte
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 9:32am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Jay, Barry and Kid Flash seemed tolerable. 100 Flashes or speedsters or whatever? Nope.

Superman, Supergirl, maybe Powergirl seem manageable.

Hulk and She-Hulk, OK, I guess especially with the more radical take on She-Hulk that emerged after the initial She-hulk run. The Hulk Lantern Corps? No thanks.

I think you can have lineage, legacy, family and make it work, OK but it's definitely slippery slope and creators should be careful in who they make one of many instead of a singular specimen.
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

There should not be multiple Spider-MEN!
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 9:46am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Daniel, you articulated it better than I could have done.

It is a slippery slope. Kid Flash did seem logical and "organic". I suppose She-Hulk did, too. I never really had an issue with Spider-Woman, either.

But like you said, lineage, legacy, family, etc. 

I'm trying to work out how crowded it may have been if, during the Lee/Ditko era, we'd had Morales, Cindy Moon, etc, etc. 

I don't mind evil doppelgangers. Whole new ball game. A trope I love seeing in any long-running fiction. Preferably, I'd rather see ONE evil doppelganger per hero, though. 
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Peter Martin
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

What boggles my mind is that not only is there a Red Hulk, but there was a Red She-Hulk!

Marvel, you can have this one for free: Blue Hulk.
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Ronald Joseph
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Anyone remember the THOR CORPS? Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Dargo, and Eric Masterson? Four enchanted hammer-wielding heroes in one book!

The multiple Hulks (Agents of S.M.A.S.H. - really?) bothers me the most. Only because The Hulk is my favorite character.  
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Ronald Joseph
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 9:59am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Marvel, you can have this one for free: Blue Hulk.

Heh. You kid, but they kinda came close to that when Rick Jones became a blue Abomination - called A-Bomb! Remember him?
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John Popa
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

It is a slippery slope. Kid Flash did seem logical and "organic". I suppose She-Hulk did, too. I never really had an issue with Spider-Woman, either

-----

To be fair, I think we tend to be ok with things that were already there when we got into comics, but much less so when it happens once we're 'in.'

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Robert Shepherd
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I almost never like derivatives. I get the whole sidekick craze, and I'm not opposed to having sidekicks for the heroes, but that still is not my preference. Given the choice between a Batman comic and a Batman & Robin comic, I'll choose the Batman comic first every time. Even as a kid, thats the way I preferred my books. And I never, ever bought a "family" book.

I do think derivatives are inevitable. Especially once writers go down the multi-verse path.

So yeah that means I can't stand all the Spider-Folk, or Hulk-Folk.

There are always exceptions:
Loved JBs She-Hulk
Really liked Beta-Ray Bill
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Daniel Gillotte
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I think "replacements" like Beta Ray Bill or even USAgent in Captain America give us a chance to see how somebody ELSE would be in that role and when done well shows JUST how special our hero really is. BUT, we don't, in comics, ditch characters much and so Beta Ray Bill and USAgent and Rhodey and and and live on and on.
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Ted Downum
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 11:20am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Robert Shepherd: "I get the whole sidekick craze, and I'm not opposed to having sidekicks for the heroes, but that still is not my preference."

*****

When it comes to de-uniquing, I give classic Golden Age sidekicks a pass, even the ones who are "kid" versions of the main hero (Kid Flash, Wonder Girl, Speedy, Aqualad). I put the Marvel Family in the same category. Because they're explicitly secondary to the main heroes, they don't diminish those heroes. Same thing with evil dopplegangers. They enhance the original by providing a contrast to the original, making our heroes that much more heroic.

De-uniquing bugs me in two ways: it diminishes the original, and it produces a "de-uniqued" character who is, by definition, a gimmick, a knock-off.

It's also (in my view, anyway) kind of...childish. Over in the Wolverine's New Powers thread, somebody wondered if Charles Soule, father of Wolverine's new hot claws, was five years old. That's the level on which most de-uniquing seems to operate: "What if the Hulk was still the Hulk but he was RED instead of GREEN?" "So there are Green Lanterns, but what if we had lots of OTHER colors of Lanterns?" "One Spider-Man is great; what if we had 62 MORE?" It all strikes me as vaguely juvenile, or (at very, very least) lazy as f**k.

But, hey, I loved She-Hulk, Beta Ray Bill, and old Pre-Crisis Earth-2 stories, so what do I know.

(edited for correct quote attribution)



Edited by Ted Downum on June 12 2018 at 11:32am
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Ronald Joseph
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 11:29am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Ronald Joseph: "I get the whole sidekick craze, and I'm not opposed to having sidekicks for the heroes, but that still is not my preference."


That was a Robert Shepherd quote.
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Ted Downum
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 11:32am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Fixed. Sorry, Ronald!
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Peter Martin
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

There may be laziness behind some de-uniquing but some of it is, sadly, driven by the imperatives of protecting the IP. For example, Marvel will have felt impelled to always have a Spider-Woman for fear that DC might might otherwise be able to create a character with that name (I believe that was also the rationale with She-Hulk).

I remember reading how Stan Lee felt sore about DC introducing Power Girl when Power Man was a Marvel character.
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 11:39am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

I think we're back to Hulk (Banner) and She-Hulk (Jen Walters) now.

Amadeus Cho is still green and super-strong but -- so I've read -- is no longer as powerful and will no longer be going by "Hulk."

Everyone else has been de-powered or killed. 
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Ronald Joseph
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Fixed. Sorry, Ronald!

No worries! 
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Steven Myers
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

I liked Spider-Woman more then She-Hulk because though she had similar powers and name, she had nothing else in common with Spider-Man.

One of the reasons I enjoy Kamala Khan/Ms. Marvel. No real connection but the name.
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Michael Murphy
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Some times the legacy thing bugs me other times not. To be sure, some of it is my own bias - do I like a character or not?

I think the Batman family is too large but because I like some of the legacy characters (Nightwing, Tim Drake/Robin, Batgirl) I am forgiving of some of them.

Green Lantern Corps & Nova Corps make sense but the multi-colored other Lantern Corps bug me.

To many Thor knock-offs but I like Beta Ray BIll.

To many Spider-Men (or is it Spider-Mans?) but I am OK with Jessica Drew/Spider-Woman




Edited by Michael Murphy on June 12 2018 at 2:42pm
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

"Objectively" I know that Dick Grayson should've never stopped being Robin. And yet I like him as Nightwing. And I think Tim Drake is great. Paradoxes abound in this world. 
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Mike Norris
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

I like the idea of a Green Lantern Corps. I don't like the idea of six humans being Green Lanterns. 
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Karl Wiebe
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Just throwing a radical idea out there, I am thinking some might think it is not great.  When the Spider-Man Clone Saga in the 1990s was in full swing, I thought it would have been interesting if Peter Parker died (for real) and Ben Reilly took over as the real Spider-Man.  Kind of like Golden-age Green Lantern vs. Silver-Age Green Lantern (one ended and the other begins).  I was OK with Wolverine dying and replaced with X-23.  Wolverine had 4 decades of stories, which is a lot (just don't bring him back.)

I guess what I am saying is, I think some of the "copycats" come into play because writers might be running out of ways to tell new stories with the same old characters.  I personally am OK with a secondary character, if they get rid of the original.
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

When writers run out of ways to tell new stories with the same old characters, it's time for a new writer... with a fresh approach to the
original character*.

-C!

*Flame claw Wolverine or electrical Red & Blue Superman isn't my
ideal examples either!


Edited by Charles Valderrama on June 12 2018 at 7:45pm
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Mike Norris
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 7:59pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Kind of like Golden-age Green Lantern vs. Silver-Age Green Lantern (one ended and the other begins).
************************************************************ ************************\
There was about a decade between the two events. 
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