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Topic: Question for JB, Changes to Characters Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Mason Meomartini
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Posted: 18 July 2018 at 1:20pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

The way Marvel and DC characters have shifted off model since their original depiction has come up many times on this forum.  The last time I remember, Dan Slott explained that he thought making Peter Parker the head of his own corporation was the same as you having Namor run Oracle.  He wrote that it was implied by Stan Lee's original stories that this was where Peter in university as a brilliant science student was going.  

I think this was a misleading comparison because this development was implied, not shown as it was in the case of Namor.  He was depicted by Lee early on using his resources to start a movie production company.  Maybe Dan Slott thought depicting Namor as running a company and wearing suits was compounding on a shift in character that was written by someone who wasn't the creator when Stan Lee did this in FF.  But I'm guessing that you take the beginning of the Marvel Universe in 1961 as the foundation for Timely characters that were reintroduced by Stan Lee.

The implied future of Marvel's main characters is related to the illusion of change that is part of this serialized genre.  The characters never get there.  You've explained that Stan Lee put the brakes on Peter Parker growing up when he realized this character could be around indefinitely.

Peter David has also tried to find a contradiction by using examples like She-Hulk and the Vision.  I don't know the Vision character that well from his origin and never read your Avengers West Coast stories about him but I know you've explained that She-Hulk had various depictions and you pulled those threads together in your series.  Simple enough to understand.  He used your first Hulk run as another example because Banner and the Hulk were separated, not something shown in Lee's initial stories.  But it's obvious that Peter David did not distinguish between temporary changes for a particular story arc or changes in external details and changes to the fundamental nature of a character.  I don't think there was a need for so much confusion over the issue when he was writing on here and his website about the topic.

In so many things there's always a thread drift, digital files get distorted over time when they're transferred from one storage to another, historical details that change over time when there's new research, and people just plainly misinterpreting what they've heard as it gets repeated down the line.  So do you think that the way these long running characters have moved so far from their original intent was inevitable?  Like Batman presented as a psychotic ninja after about 50 years of publication.  That even if there was more editorial control, the editors themselves would gradually misunderstand the characters over decades of publishing?  Maybe this is just the editors not bothering to do the research because the original stories by the creators are there to refer to.

I noticed now the only way characters get realigned is when the two companies start using going back to the original as a marketing tool when readers don't like the changes or get sick of them.  "Back to basics" is one phrase that's used a lot.


Edited by Mason Meomartini on 18 July 2018 at 1:22pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 July 2018 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

This feels a whole lot like "Let's you and him fight," so I'll just say I think Slott and David are wrong, and leave it at that.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 18 July 2018 at 4:45pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Hope it's okay to share some thoughts...

I think if something works and has lasted you are a fool to change it, unless you have something even better, but then why not do that with a new character? Like they always had stories where Ben Grimm is cured and he always went back to being The Thing, sometimes there just is no better. He works, so we're going to go back to what works because 100 issues of Ben Grimm ex-superhero isn't really going to come close is it?

Is this the 'not breaking the toys' thing basically? As long as someone can go back to what was working when what they have changed doesn't work, and when it doesn't permanently do damage to what worked...

Aside from Ben Grimm's various times of being 'cured', Professor X died way back in X-Men #42, he's back in #65, an imposter was killed, because someone realized he was a valuable and useful character. Don't throw anything away that worked, and fix things that didn't work so they do. Super characters have their own logic and time frame, like any good fantasy fiction. Sherlock Holmes, Donald Duck, Dracula, Hercules,  it can keep going and so can any super-powered costumed or non-costumed character.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 18 July 2018 at 4:47pm
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 18 July 2018 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

In this post-CRISIS era of company-wide or simply character reboots, it doesn't really matter if Peter Parker is a rich CEO...right now!  Marvel wouldn't dare such a wild change if they didn't think they had the "reboot card" in their pocket for later use.  I remember Peter's identity was revealed to the world a few years ago--that was reversed, wasn't it?  Daredevil's identity has been common knowledge for years now, but the latest restart had it a secret again, with the how and why being a "mystery."  Has it been revealed yet?  I don't know because I quit Marvel when Cap hailed Hydra.  Speaking of that, after numerous interviews where the writer and editor swore up and down that was the real Cap and that the revelation of him being a Hydra sleeper agent would "change the Marvel Universe forever," it was Ultimately revealed to be (spoilers) basically a Cap from an alternate universe.  Another gigantic (and stupid) change, undone.  (Thank goodness!)

Over at DC, both Superman and Batman have sons (who even got their own comic!), but I'm convinced that will be wiped away one day.  (Or has it already happened?  I believe Bendis' new comic gets rid of Superman's marriage and child in some way.  I can't keep up.)  Almost every major character has died at some point (Superman, Batman, Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, Green Arrow, Martian Manhunter, etc., etc.) but they're all back now.  They just finished a series titled THE DEATH OF HAWKMAN...a month or two before premiering Bryan Hitch's new HAWKMAN comic (which I bought and it looks pretty good--and it IS Carter Hall!)!

Comics (and their movies and TV shows too) have totally entered the WHAT IF/ELSEWORLDS era--it's all "Let's do something we never would (could/should) have done before!"

One day, the stories might matter again.  For now, when someone asks me what to read at Marvel and DC, I tell them to read pre-CRISIS DC and the first 200 issues of all the big-name Marvels.  After that, it's just follow your favorite creators (like JB on FANTASTIC FOUR or Ed Brubaker's CAPTAIN AMERICA).
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Darren Ashmore
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Posted: 19 July 2018 at 12:27am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

To me the problem stems from fans reading comics far past the age they should be.  The old Five Year Turnover thing was quite true, kids started reading at roughly age 7 or 8 stuck around for a while and then found other interests.  What I believe happened is Marvel (and probably more specifically Stan) introduced this almost soap opera element to the stories.  Readers suddenly had a personal investment in the characters (as opposed to the Direct Competition who were still doing eight page stories of Lois trying to trick Clark into revealing his secret identity) and in doing so made it that much harder to give up reading the books. Gradually, then, the reading age extended and in doing so, the older readership wanted, nay demanded, realistic change for the characters; age them; marry them off; give them kids, have others take up their identities, etc, etc. Anything to keep the format fresh for a continually aging customer base.  Of course DC then caught on and although late to the party, characterisation wise, took the ball and ran with it too.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing mind you, I'm personally closing in on 50 years as a reader, so I'm well past the 'target audience', and the hobby has given me more enjoyment than I can measure.

As Rebecca says the trick is that you can play with the toys as much as you want, as long as you put them back in the box the way you found them.  Something many of todays' writers and artists forget.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 19 July 2018 at 7:52am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Although Peter Parker was briefly the CEO of a big company, he sacrificed that to stop Dr. Octopus from using his tech to further the Jackal's goals-- a noble deed in line with his basic values.

And he lost everything doing it. He's now struggling to get by as the Daily Planet's science editor (which really does seem in keeping with his past interests and career) and his public persona is now more vilified than his superhero identity.

It was a major change in his status quo, but it clearly was not meant to last.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 19 July 2018 at 10:57am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I don't think there's anything wrong with reading comics as an adult. I think the wrong is in trying to force things like superheroes that were created for all ages into areas of maturity where they basically can't function. In underground comics you had cartoon animals having sex and that was naughty and right for undergrounds, but if you had Scamp graphically copulating with poodles like Triumph the Smigel hand puppet of a few years ago, but it would be horrible to see. Same with luridly graphic violence; Wonder Warthog could toss a villain into a meat-grinder and have him say 'ouch!', or pull the head and spine off some baddie in an underground, but having Batman do it? They have definitely made the villains more extreme to the point of caricature because then it looks that less obscene to have the heroes kill or someone like The Punisher or Rambo be taken as a hero (which originally they were not).

Yeah, you can make Peter Parker have a Captain America body, and be mister cool with multiple girlfriends, and a wealthy scientist like so many others, but why? You had something unique that worked and was popular, even famous, and you broke it. Give Tony Stark a new heart. Give Nightcrawler an image transducer gizmo. You want to throw curves like Tony Stark develops an alcohol problem and adults and kids can learn a little something about that through this hopefully, but you haven't permanently altered the character (although all soap-opera alcoholics I've ever seen have relapses), so you can do real things. 'There Is No Hope In Crime Alley', the Batman story, is a great story that also exposes the limitations of costumed crime-fighters in a very real way, but it's a one-off, otherwise you end up with Alan Moore deconstructing the whole thing reductively to some ultimate nihilism. A one trick pony, nowhere to go from there but ka-boom, all toys destroyed. How serious and adult?
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 19 July 2018 at 2:55pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Alan Moore at least had a point to make in WATCHMEN about the unquestioned assumption of a certain type of superhero comics -- that costumed vigilantes are good guys. In the real world, of course, they wouldn't be -- they'd be out of their damned minds, or at best a sort of fad. And WATCHMEN was the real world inasmuch as there were no supervillains -- at least no powered ones -- for costumed vigilantes to fight.

And of course in the real world someone with "powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men" would've been used by the U.S. to gain advantage in the Cold War. 

But in mainstream Marvel and DC comics super-powered villains DO exist and all characters exist in a more-or-less timeless limbo (excepting WWII characters who have some excuse for aging slowly, being stuck in ice for decades, etc.). So the WATCHMEN "critique" can go only so far. 

I think the influence of DARK KNIGHT was much bigger than that of WATCHMEN. WATCHMEN barely had any violence in it, and when you saw it, it wasn't traditional superhero "fun violence." (MIRACLEMAN was far more extreme in this regard -- if two Superman-level beings fought each other the result would probably be an incredible amount of death, especially if the bad guy was as vicious as the erstwhile Kid Miracleman. NOT "fun violence" -- you're supposed to be horrified.)

There was lots more EXTREME!! "fun violence" in DARK KNIGHT, and the influence that had on '90s superhero comics was awful. 
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 19 July 2018 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Two further thoughts... horrifying isn't attractive to a large number of potential readers I'm thinking, and,starkly realistic violence which would indeed horrify combined with people in colorful skintight costumes and logos is an essentially odd marriage. Now, talking about the holocaust in terms of mice, cats, pigs and all is dodgy enough in some ways to me, Pulitzer prize and Aesop notwithstanding, but we're at a point where comic creators have to trip all over themselves to break more and more rules to be somehow significant/collectable/historic for the fan market which has become almost the only market.

Dark Knight, the original four adult deluxe format not primary colored books, as a side-trip was an interestingly idiosyncratic indulgence. As the blueprint for the actual future of superhero comics it has been a hugely muscled rasping three kinds of grimacing mouth mistake. It was as if Marv Newland's Bambi Vs. Godzilla short became a full length Disney feature!

I still think Alan Moore's and Totleben/Bissette's Swamp Thing was good stuff Maynard, but Watchmen has been a bad influence in many regards people are still finding out about I think. It was a Phillip K. Dick world presenting a bright colorful appearance but with paranoiac questioning of the underlying truths that seems to have been lost on some who didn't also read the Three Stigmata Of Palmer Eldritch/Days Of Perky Pat and Through A Scanner Darkly etc. again a strange combination, not invalid except if it is done with older long established characters which is what happened in terms of it's influence. That it had used the Charlton characters when cooked up and that something prevented them being misused this way (they'd have been destroyed) seemed good, except for how it's basic recipe has been re-used (or attempted anyway) on various other things to their ultimate reduction/damage/destruction.

I still don't see Watchmen as anything close to reality, I see too many people in gaudy costumes for that. An indulgence for a very limited kind of adult fan that should've been and stayed a one-off. Not the ultimate superhero comic, just a branch offshoot or even a parasite feeding upon what was a healthy tree at one time for decades.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 19 July 2018 at 4:51pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 19 July 2018 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I'd have to disagree that Watchmen barely had any violence in it.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 19 July 2018 at 10:06pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Watchmen is extremely violent, but it is not celebrated with the same allure and appeal that it is in Dark Knight. Dark Knight's moments of violence are songs of brilliant triumph and crushing defeat. In Watchmen, violence is simply a part of the characters' everyday lives in a world that arguably deserves the destruction that is about to be visited upon it. 

Watchmen is definitely an intentional deconstruction of the genre, and one that has been so successful that it is difficult to remember what comics were like before the cynicism and rot modern creators adore set in. Moore has said that he never intended it to become the template for how super-heroes should be treated, and he seems faintly appalled that he's been aped so consistently since. 

His 1963 and America's Best titles were an attempt to revisit those earlier, lighter times. Unfortunately, the sick and the bloodthirsty haven't taken to those with the same ardor they did Watchmen*.

* Arguably, Moore's most influential scene appears in neither Swamp Thing nor Watchmen, but Miracleman, in which Kid Miracleman's psychopathic rampage through London gave modern comic writers giggle-fits and murder-boners they haven't been able to successfully replicate since, no matter how many heroes, heroines, cities, planets, and innocents die at their keyboards. 


Edited by Brian Hague on 19 July 2018 at 10:10pm
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Mason Meomartini
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Posted: 23 July 2018 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Rebecca, yes, it is the "not breaking the toys" thing.  It seems it's only the sales that can be broken and not the toys because I guess editors feel no matter what they do, they can always reset the characters.

To everyone that responded after JB, do you think these distortions creeping in over time were bound to happen?  Does this happen to any pop culture series if it's around long enough?  

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