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John Byrne
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Posted: 11 October 2018 at 11:03am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Matthew Shepard

The “but”? How is a cathedral a suitable resting place? The Bible says Gay men SHOULD be killed. His parents feared desecration. Surely this is the worst kind, interring him in a place that represents the very core of hatred of Gay people.

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Doug Centers
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Posted: 11 October 2018 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

The hypocrisy of it all!
If not for "God's" writings a lot of hate for many groups may have never existed.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 11 October 2018 at 11:26am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

No, it was and always will have been still a horrible and sad ending, the tip of an iceberg we can never know I suspect. :^(

“God can take something very, very bad and make something good come out of it,” Bishop Robinson said.

“It is a noteworthy place to be at rest," Mr. Shepard’s friend Jason Marsden said.

Strange magical thinking. I understand it not. Like the bit where millions of people throughout history just decide to sin by being gay I guess. Y'know, just to irritate those straight people of 'faith' who never have to deal with or think about any of that stuff outside their self-absorbed center of the universe-ism in any depth. But it does seem to say Shepard liked the church. Next they will find the ashes of some 'witches' burned by the church people to intern and make it all good/great 'again' like it used to be... :^(
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 11 October 2018 at 11:32am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

"If not for "God's" writings a lot of hate for many groups may have never existed."

That's simplistic too though, I think before there were organized religions people still committed evil and stupid acts against foreigners or the different... blaming God or a devil is all the same kind of magical thinking, don't let them off on that, please. The evil comes first and the act is justified with God or something else after the fact.

Communist countries outlawed religions and there were higher death tolls than ever! It's from inside not from outside books or voices... I can read Mein Kampf or watch the Texas Chainsaw massacre and like a majority of people not go out and presecute/blame some group for everything in 'my' world being imperfect, nor cut skins off of others and wear them.
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Doug Centers
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Posted: 11 October 2018 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

"That's simplistic too though,..."

...

Yeah, I knew it the second I wrote it, but hypocrisy puts me in the state of blurting things out. And I did say "may".


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John Byrne
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Posted: 11 October 2018 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I wouldn't call it simplistic. The Bible is page upon page of hate speech.

Currently I am reading DRUNK WITH BLOOD, by Steve Wells. It documents God's killings in the Bible, all 25,000,000 of them. People -- men women and children, even babies -- slaughtered for "wrong thinking". Yet how can they even have these "wrong" thoughts, except by using the brain God gave them?

Several years ago I met a Gay couple, one of whom was a minister. I asked him, as politely as I could, how he could not only belong to, but actually represent a "club" that wanted him and his husband killed. He said he believed God had made him what he was.

I honestly had no answer for that. It's the "God did it" argument that beats all others, including arguments based on the teachings of their own faith!

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 11 October 2018 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion recounts a study by Israeli psychologist George Tamarin in which 1000+ Israeli schoolchildren , between the ages of 8 and 14, were presented with a passage from the Book of Joshua about the destruction of Jericho and how they 'utterly destroyed all in the city, both men and women, young and old' and then asked 'Do you think Joshua and the Israelites acted rightly or not?', with a choice of (a) total approval (b) partial approval and (c) total disaproval. 66% indicated total approval.

A different group (of 168 Israeli children) were then given the same text but with Joshua's name replaced with 'General Lin' and Israel changed to 'a Chinese kingdom 3000 years ago.' With this group, 75% disapproved.


Edited by Peter Martin on 11 October 2018 at 1:49pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 11 October 2018 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

'God did it' wouldn't stand up in a court of law, at least not a sane one. Plus there's the question of which god. There seem to be a few different ones involved in the collection of writings called The Bible.

I'm sceptical about a God inspiring someone to commit violent acts all that much, like if there was no writings or 'teachings' the violence would never have occurred to them or happened, not going to say never, but they sure do justify their hateful and violent acts with 'him' skipping the 'thou shalt not kill' bit which should figure pretty large... from supposed Christians lynching minorities to an African tribe where they kill albinos for good luck and abundant crops according to a spiritual leader's 'wisdom' (ancient Celts appear to have buried parts of men for protection way back, and Aztecs fed blood and fresh hearts to stone 'Gods').

The thing is it's 'faith' based, not logical, it's your basic magical thinking or even confidence trick writ large (there will be pie in the sky in the sweet by-and-by if you obey, don't think). Where people credit a 'faith' with getting off substances or striving to reform (repent) from past negative ways that would be the good side, or to do seemingly altruistic acts of charity (though they get pie later). Even if you want to throw it all out it's not going to happen, can't be erased, and may be something inherent to a large percentage of human beings. Good as well as bad behaviour have been justified and inspired by spiritual beliefs, but dogma and absolutism are always negative. Besides the destruction of Sodom "The scent of burning oxen flesh is pleasing to the Lord" is in the Bible too, so that kind of sums it up as a source for anything very practical. Sodom was like Jericho a real place that suffered calamity and then some very human person made use of it to justify their prejudices with a Kiplingesque 'just so' story. Why did the crop fail this year? Because Baal is a false god, because Chitlokulichan craves blood, because the Pharoah failed to receiver proper obedience, because Matthew Shepard sinned.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 11 October 2018 at 5:11pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I wouldn't call it simplistic. The Bible is page upon page of hate speech.
________________

You don't think that the New Testament and Jesus' emphasis on "Love your enemies," "Turn the other cheek," and "Do not judge others" for the last 2,000 years somewhat mitigate the Old Testament's harsher dictates--rules given to a fairly primitive people in a violent time and place?

I would point out that the last billion people who have read the Bible read it AFTER the Old Testament was closed and Jesus redirected God's followers (who were listening) to self-sacrificial love and peace.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 11 October 2018 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Unless you think we are currently living in the Kingdom of Heaven, that Old/New argument doesn’t wash. Jesus said he came to change nothing, that not one jot, not one tittle of the Law (the OT) would change before Kingdom Come.

Or you can accept Jesus as a false prophet. That works, too.

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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 11 October 2018 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Jesus also said that He came to FULFILL the Law (fulfilling the punishment for mankind's sins by taking the death sentence for same Himself on the Cross) and the "Kingdom of Heaven is upon you" (or "in your midst"), meaning wherever the King (Jesus) rules (like in the hearts of believers; you've heard "Jesus is in my heart"), there is the Kingdom.

Edited by Eric Jansen on 11 October 2018 at 9:51pm
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 11 October 2018 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

You don't think that the New Testament and Jesus' emphasis on "Love your enemies," "Turn the other cheek," and "Do not judge others"
----------------------------------------------------
"Love your neighbor as yourself" comes from the book of Leviticus, just a stone's throw (pun somewhat intended) from the regulations on human sexuality that began this thread.

Not interested in having an argument here, but I feel like once in awhile somebody needs to stick up for the God whom the Jews still worship.  Its not just that the New Testament maintained the 'bad stuff' from the Old.  The 'good stuff' from the New Testament actually comes from the Old.
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