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Peter Martin
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Posted: 05 December 2018 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I'm watching Spider-Man 3 at the moment and among the shopping list of things wrong with it is that they failed to capture what was cool about the black costume. They had it simply as a colour-variant of their normal Spider-Man costume, but the symbol and the eyes have to be big and the rest has to be... black.
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Jozef Brandt
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Posted: 05 December 2018 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply


I liked it fine at the time, and was actually pleased that some things from Secret Wars actually carried over.  Then someone had the bright idea to turn it into Venom...bleah.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 06 December 2018 at 2:32am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

At the time this costume change worked well.   It had an in-story expanation behind it and generated press and public interest outside the sometimes-insular world of comic books.   The reactions may have been mostly mixed-to-positive but what's important is people still remember it.

Then in the 90s someone tried to replicate that success and gave Peter four new costumes -- because four crappy costumes are better than one good one, right?

... and I bet you only remembered that storyline because I just brought it up (and probably wish I hadn't!).
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 06 December 2018 at 3:14am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

So, does the Black Costume pass what I call The Ditko Test?

1) Could you recognize a character if you were shown only a small portion of their costume -- typically a boot or a glove?

2) Now show that same boot or glove to a non-comics fan.  Do they also recognize the character?   

I'd say the Black Costume kind of falls in the middle.   

Show a comics fan a black costume boot and they might figure it out -- Spider-man famously had a black costume once, right?   Show a fan a BC glove -- yes (and now I understand why the white patch on top of the glove is so important to the look, regardless of the logistics of how the webs work)

The non-comics fan... ehh probably not for both the boot and the glove.

The original Red and Blues (or Red and Blacks, if you swing that way) are the control.  It usually bats high, if not 1000 for the test on both comic and non-comic fans.

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 06 December 2018 at 3:33am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Not just four new costumes, as I recall, Rob, but four entirely new identities. Protege', Dusk, Firefly (or somesuch), and another I can't recall at all. If Peter's problem with being Spider-Man is that Spider-Man is a curse, maybe he could just go out and fight crime as somebody else, the theory went. Then, once the identities were established and Spidey once again took up the onus of just being Spidey, four other heroes assumed the roles (one of them a woman) and struck out immediately, vanishing from the general consciousness faster than the memory of Trump's last lie to the American public.

It was an early experiment in spinning off from the Spider-Man success story without necessarily duplicating the character with near-exact copies. What Marvel found, of course, was that near-exact copies were really what the public wanted.

I also found the characters weirdly reminiscent of the Kirbyverse line for some reason, and they didn't establish a long-lasting foothold in the public imagination either, although I believe they were far more deserving of one.

As for the black costume itself, I remember thinking at the time what a great marketing gimmick it was and a wonderful means of changing everything while changing nothing. The alien elements that it brought to Peter's daily life were unfortunate, but all of Marvel blurred and blended it's individual colors into one, massive purple-gray bruise anyway. Spidey still knows Thor and hung out on more than one occasion with the Guardians of the Galaxy. An alien costume wasn't that far a bridge to cross. 

Also, it was the Marvel Era of Highly Publicized Change and New Visuals anyway. The FF got their nun costumes. Iron Man was in his Silver Centurion armor, completely removing any reason to call him the "Golden Avenger," and there were rumors in the air that Jim Shooter was going to kill Peter Parker and maybe replace him with Flash Thompson since "anybody could be Spider-Man." 

The overall effect left me a little non-plussed. I was excited one by one with the changes initially, but taken all together, it somehow made everything less believable rather than more. It seemed a little forced. Soon after, Captain America would be replaced (because anybody can be Captain America), Mr. Fixit would take over for the Hulk, Thor would grow a beard and wear a more ceremonial set of armor. After that, we'd begin losing the characters entirely with USAgents, Thunderstrikes, and War Machines. 

Something about the very idea of identity became dislodged in the Marvel creative formula and open season was the rule, all year 'round, every year. Is it exciting to have "everything up for grabs" and nothing you can rely upon?

I'm going to vote no. 

All of that being said, I find the black costume weirdly nostalgic now, in a way I don't associate with the other changes from that time. Something about my aesthetic sense has decided that I kind of like the visual, or maybe I enjoyed those comics from that time more than I realized. It may just be that they were among the last comics that I did enjoy in an non-cynical, unqualified way. That Byrne cover with the white soles. The building turning to gold. I liked all of that at the time in some sort of way I no longer seem to be able to anymore, even in back issues.


Edited by Brian Hague on 06 December 2018 at 3:34am
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 06 December 2018 at 3:42am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I will agree that it is far less specific to the character, looked at inch-by-inch. Ditko's original and the Romita variation are far more distinctive to the character and idea of Spider-Man. The later McFarlane cartoon version lost the idea of a human figure inside the costume, but nevertheless retained those webs and blue-black and red color combo. 

The black costume was far more reliant on Spidey's distinctive body language and poses to convey the idea that Peter was still the guy inside that suit.

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 06 December 2018 at 4:51am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Not just four new costumes, as I recall, Rob, but four entirely new identities. Protege', Dusk, Firefly (or somesuch), and another I can't recall at all.

-----

Prodigy, Dusk, Hornet, and Ricochet. Prodigy emphasized Peter's superhuman strength, Ricochet played on his agility, Hornet was his science/tech side, and I never understood what Dusk's deal was.
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Trevor Thompson
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Posted: 06 December 2018 at 6:59am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I once asked Shooter how those back-of-the-hand webshooters were supposed to work. In Ditko’s original design, the weblines shot straight out across Peter’s palm, making it the easiest thing in the world for him to grab them. Shooter informed me that “all he had to do” was flip his hand over to grab the line. Couldn’t make that any way practical in my mind.

_________________________________

This is why you're great at what you do. I'd have never have thought of that.

It really doesn't make sense. All that twisting his wrist makes web-swinging difficult.
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Mike Norris
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Posted: 06 December 2018 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

The original Red and Blues (or Red and Blacks, if you swing that way) are the control.  It usually bats high, if not 1000 for the test on both comic and non-comic fans.
************************************************************ ***************
Excluding my mother ( and a few others) who have called Spider-Man "Superman" on a few occasions. ;) 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 December 2018 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Ah, civilians! Roger Stern tells of attending a Halloween parade, decades ago. When a float full of superheroes rolled by, a young mother pointed at Captain America and said to her kid “Look! Spider-Man!”
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 06 December 2018 at 3:32pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I liked it. I think after they started
adding blue highlights to it, the costume
lost its effect.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 06 December 2018 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

It sure did. 
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