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Topic: DELUXE Captain Marvel and the Monster Society of Evil. Cancelled Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 10 January 2019 at 1:12pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

It's like Disney's The Song of the South, really. Historically important work, something that scholars and diehard fans have been wanting on their shelves for ages, but every time it gets even close to happening, the parent company decides that the potential headaches aren't going to offset the potential profits. They manage to upset people and get enough headlines for unintentionally offensive material, so they're always going to balk at the stuff that they know is going to offend people.

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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 10 January 2019 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Ok, I realize that many here aren't
religious. About 70% of Americans identify
as Christian. DC doesn't want the headache
of a comic containing racist stereotypes
that can be put it a historical context,
but has NO TROUBLE releasing a book called
THE SECOND COMING, showing Jesus rooming
with a superhero in the new Vertigo line.

There's no historical context for the
hypocrisy, its in vad taste right now. I
don't understand how one is ok, but the
other, not so much.

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 10 January 2019 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I’d be opposed to any depictions of untrue stereotypes that painted all Christians with the same brush. I think their mythology should be treated equally with all other mythologies. If Thor as a superhero is alright, then so is Jesus as a superhero. 
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Joseph Greathouse
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Posted: 10 January 2019 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

"There's no historical context for the 
hypocrisy, its in vad taste right now. I 
don't understand how one is ok, but the 
other, not so much."

I think its pretty easy. One has the potential of bringing bad press to a large-scale movie investment, thereby having a possible negative impact on costing the company money.

The other does not.

As business decisions go, it could easily be worth their while to determine how the film does and if it indeed becomes a franchise before they determine whether releasing such a collection would be profitable. 
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 10 January 2019 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

David, I'll buy that. I haven't read those issues focusing on Ebony in that way, so yes, justifying a racist depiction and then doubling down on it sounds pretty beyond the pale... so to speak.

Greg Kirkman wrote: "So, I ask—legitimately, not because I actually have an “answer” and am therefore trying to offer a rebuttal to your statement—where is that line drawn? What makes some product-of-their-time books okay to keep in publication, and others not? Granted, Golden Age comics may not be at quite the same literary level as Mark Twain, but..."

Where is line drawn? Back there, behind us. We're past it now.

If DC were to reprint the Monster Society chapters as is, they would literally be repeating the mistakes of yesterday and profiting from the racist depiction of the races therein. One of the oft-cited reasons for keeping these things alive to avoid repeating those mistakes. And yet you argue that we should, what, perpetuate them now so there are less of them in the future? Or should we just, y'know, see the humor of them and be cool with it? Do you find Steamboat and Nippo funny?

Why should a black kid who enjoys the Shazam film pick up a book and find the very same subservient mushmouf stereotype that his grandparents were subjected to? Because you think it's of historical interest? You get to make that determination for him? How wise of you. How learned.

It's odd that in recent threads correspondents complain of or are warned against saying things that might paint them as racists or homophobes. God forbid anyone here should suffer being mis-characterized. 

Why, it's almost as if the manner in which people are presented in public mattered or something...

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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 10 January 2019 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Kids aren't going to buy $50 or $100 hardcover reprints of Golden Age material--that's strictly middle-aged longtime fan territory.  I think 40 or 50 year-olds can read something in its proper historical context without it being an affirmation of thoughtless racist imagery.  Again, a disclaimer or well-written intro not only mollifies the issue, it gives the opportunity to speak against mistakes of the past.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 10 January 2019 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Should we limit the print run as well, Eric? Have the book appear only in certain venues? How limited should this now-no-longer mass market edition be? Because we don't want to sell it to casual buyers who might simply open it up and start reading, right? 

Or are we still selling it in as many shops and Barnes and Noble locations as we can? The intro will mollify a certain portion of the buying public, but there we still be those who come to the property cold and will be surprised, even perhaps, if its still permissible, offended by what they find inside. Well, their fault, right? Should have read the introduction first. 

Or, y'know, here's a wacky thought... we could just reprint some non-racist Captain Marvel stories and sell it everyone. How about that?

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 10 January 2019 at 10:44pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I get what you’re saying Brian. 

As noted, I don’t have an answer. Speaking only for myself, of course, I just don’t like the idea of censorship and suppression and whitewashing of history. It doesn’t sit well with me. As a (Hopefully!) rational adult, I can pick up such a book and view it with the proper historical context. Try to learn from it. Get a sense of history, with all of its ugly truth laid bare. 

I know that the same can’t be said for everyone, and that there are considerations to be had for both children and for those who would legitimately (and quite reasonably) take offense. It’s obviously a delicate matter, and I don’t have an answer. But I think it’s important not to lose sight of history, so as not to repeat it. Does reprinting history mean repeating it? I I don’t know.

I read some time ago that a controversial, scholarly reprinting of Mein Kampf sold like hotcakes in Germany, and opened up a big can of legal and moral questions.
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David Miller
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Posted: 10 January 2019 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Yeah, I discovered The Big Red Cheese through the decidedly non-racist story reprinted in The Smithsonian Book of Comic Book Comics. I was shocked by Steamboat when I read Monster Society of Evil a few year later. Fawcett published hundreds of Captain Marvel stories, and it wouldn't be difficult to assemble a fat best-of volume that was largely pickaninny-free. 

And I wish DC would. The Archives are out of print, and chronologically reprinting the earliest, crudest stories was a pointless and self-defeating exercise, anyway. 

Whoah, this is interesting. In 1950, Fawcett published a book called NEGRO ROMANCE COMICS. I was expecting to be horrified, but...


 
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 10 January 2019 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Greg, hopefully you can see that this is not censorship, not suppression, and does not involve the whitewashing of history. History is as it occurred. Nothing has been erased. The comics involved are still widely discussed. The copyright situation being what it is, the stories are even available online, so it's not a case of anything being kept hidden from the public.

It is a publisher deciding that material designed for popular entertainment, specifically the enjoyment of children, no longer meets that requirement in modern times. The same is largely true of Song of the South for that matter. Like the Monster Society, it was put back into print some time ago and deemed commercially non-viable afterwards. Those reissued versions are still out there. Disney hasn't demanded their return to their warehouses under criminal penalty. The government hasn't stepped in to make certain they never see the light of day again. Nothing is being censored.

Another cycle of copies released today would likely not make money, especially not when balanced against the amount of press necessary to offset the attendant criticism. Even if it did make money, the product would still be something ugly. 

It is gratifying to hear you say that offense can still be a legitimate and reasonable reaction. Largely your arguments to date seem to characterize offense as a tool being used by horrid SJW's to attack fans and deprive society of its most treasured cultural holdings. 

As for the question of whether reprinting it means repeating it, yes, it does, with a newly assigned UPC code right there on the cover to ensure that the cash goes right into the DC and book seller's coffers. Is DC then in the business of selling pictures of racist caricatures; rubbery lips the shape of inner tubes, slanty devil eyes and buck teeth? DC has decided they aren't. 

It's strange that so many think they should be.


Edited by Brian Hague on 10 January 2019 at 11:17pm
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 11 January 2019 at 6:22am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

The first big comic book epic?  Yeah, I'd like to see it.

It's full of racist imagery?  Well, how bad is it?  How much is there?  That's sort of the point.  I'll never know.  Somebody else has decided for me that it's best I not see it.

But it HAS been reprinted already though, right?  In the Archives.  I guess I can go track those down sometime.  Expensive hardcovers that probably only middle-aged adults bought.  The material is out there, and nothing happened.  No big outcry, no children crying on the national news.

I'm reading Hemingway's "To Have And Have Not" right now, for the first time.  Well, the book Harry Morgan is a far cry from Bogart's charming movie version.  The book has racist utterances all the way through, from Harry.  Does that extend to Hemingway's thoughts and intentions too?  Does it matter?  It's historical and I want to read it.  Reading the racist language does not mean I agree with the racist language.  Am I glad it's in print and publishers didn't decide that the best thing for me was that I couldn't read it?  Yes, I'm glad.

But "Comics aren't literature!"  Aren't they?
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 11 January 2019 at 6:53am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

The mentions of Disney's "The Song of the South" bring to mind something else.  A friend of mine (a big Disney fan) would often tell me that when he worked in a video store in his youth, black families would rent "Song of the South" more than anything.  They really seemed to love it.  Of course, then Disney--probably WHITE executives--decided it was racist and pulled it from distribution.  So, the black people that loved it and were glad to have a Disney film that spoke to them were now denied one...until (yawn) 2009's "The Princess and the Frog"--made 63 years after "Song"!

Sometimes, censorship (even self-censorship, when overdone) has unintended consequences.
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