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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 February 2019 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Paul’s main concern seems to be with women uncovering their heads in church/temple. This seems a general rule, as does the prohibition on speaking in general.
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Brandon Frye
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Posted: 03 February 2019 at 8:12pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply


 QUOTE:
The longer they draw this out the more I'm dreading that Ethan Peck isn't going pull this off.

Leonard Nimoy left some impossibly big shoes to fill and I don't think any actor can ever fully measure up. But, based on the few short clips I've seen so far, Peck isn't terrible. My 'wait-and-see' meter is still running on that one.

Given Michael's Vulcan history, I would be very curious to see what relationship (if any) she might have had with her other foster sibling Sybok. While ST:V wasn't very memorable, Sybok was at least interesting enough to have some story potential.


 
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 03 February 2019 at 11:04pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Given Michael's Vulcan history, I would be very curious to see what relationship (if any) she might have had with her other foster sibling Sybok. While ST:V wasn't very memorable, Sybok was at least interesting enough to have some story potential.

ISTR Spock's line in ST:V as "There were many children of Sarek".  Sybok was older than both Spock and Michael and may have already been kicked off planet before Michael even entered the household.   He looks a lot older than Spock in ST:V and is a full-blooded Vulcan to boot.   If you do the math given the canon portrayal of Vulcans aging a lot slower than humans Sybok could easily be an adult while Michael is still a child.   

However, I have a feeling DISCO isn't going to deal with Sybok at all.   He's too.... inconvenient for the story they want to tell with Michael.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 03 February 2019 at 11:55pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

 Peter Martin wrote:
Carol Danvers has been Ms Marvel for a long time. But being Ms Marvel is not the same as being Captain Marvel. She's been Captain Marvel since 2012 and Greg, youngster that he is, predates that I am sure.

My point stands that she is not how Greg chooses to frame either Rey nor the new female Doctor Who.  The character of Carol Danvers has been a "Marvel" in some way shape or form for four decades and, as James pointed out, a female Captain Marvel has been around for over three decades.  That's my point.  
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 04 February 2019 at 12:26am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

That link Greg supplied is laughable.  When it uses, as it's basis, the notion that there has never been a "one-dimensional" red shirt in the history of Star Trek, you've just got to laugh.  

Seriously. 

Repeat after me with a straight face: there's never been a one-dimensional red shirt in the history of Star Trek.

Can't do it, can you?

One can only presume that using that tripe of a video as evidence against a series you've never seen can only be about pushing an agenda. As Brian so rightly noted, it's an echo-chamber video keyed into the very real and, quite frankly, dangerous speak that Greg has been publicly espousing on this forum for well over a year.  I try to confront it where ever and whenever I read it, but it's been so pervasive that it could actually become a full-time job.  Be that as it may, I'll continue to try because I think it's just that ludicrous and awful. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 04 February 2019 at 8:31am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I grew weary long ago of the whole "red shirt" thing. Red shirts are usually security guards, soldiers, and in military situations, soldiers tend to get killed.

Anyway, the first dead guy on TOS (broadcast order) was a BLUE shirt. The first red shirt deaths didn't happen until "What are Little Girls Made Of?", the seventh episode broadcast.

Of course, the whole "red shirt" fixation can be paired up with a lot of gripes from ennui-engorged fanboys. (The smooth floors in the mines in "The Devil in the Dark", the miniskirts, Kirk's "womanizing", the "shoddy" special effects and sets, etc, few of which are valid or often even true.)

Griping about red shirts is like watching a WW2 movie and complaining that it's "always" the guys in khaki who get killed.

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James Woodcock
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Posted: 04 February 2019 at 2:43pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Right, I’ve now watched that linked video.

One of the problems with the whole ethos of Mary Sue is that the people espousing it are very, very selective in their memory &/or examples they choose.

This guy is exactly that. He talks of previous Trek in general terms - no one ever gave a complicated explanation that was then followed up with a simplified version. & they asks why such a thing would happen anyway. Personally, I think this shows good all ages writing - a younger audience might appreciate a simplified version - the guy should be celebrating that it is the woman that has to give the dimmed down version (I jest).

Here’s a challenge to all Mary Sue espousers - review an episode without raising that topic. Because the second you raise that topic, I switch off & stop listening to you, you nullify everything else you say because it shows the lens through which you view things. Your lens is tainted, you hate the product because you don’t like the woman, that’s your starting point & everything else follows from there.

Think about this. If you were reading the X-Men when Jean became Phoenix, with this mindset, I think you may have struggled as she became more & more the centre of attention. This may be a bad example as Chris & John saw that was happening & dealt with it - but imaging how you would have felt while in the middle of those stories.

Going back to Captain Marvel, it makes a darn sight more sense for that title to go to Carol Danvers than anyone else. Mar-vell has been dead for over 30 years. I miss him, but I can’t see what the issue is with a female version getting the film.
Oh, right, the issue is she’s a woman. & she will be the centre of attention, the most powerful person in her film.

& that’s just not allowed except for Wonder Woman, right?
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 04 February 2019 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Thank you for your service. I'm sorry you had to sit through that nonsense.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 04 February 2019 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

It riles me, it really does. & it is getting into so many things. Gamergate, comicsgate & all the other versions of it. 
I cannot fathom what it is that is getting these males so annoyed with women. I truly pity their partners.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 04 February 2019 at 4:37pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Think about this. If you were reading the X-Men when Jean became Phoenix, with this mindset, I think you may have struggled as she became more & more the centre of attention. This may be a bad example as Chris & John saw that was happening & dealt with it - but imaging how you would have felt while in the middle of those stories.

•••

Just to tweak that a bit, I kept complaining as Chris shifted more and more focus to Phoenix, until Steve Grant one day suggested a solution: make her a villain.

This plan fell victim to Shooter’s Whim of Iron, as right in the middle of our story he decided the actions of villains must have “consequences”.

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Steve De Young
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Posted: 04 February 2019 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

On top of everything else, the term 'Mary Sue' is being woefully misused here.  It doesn't mean 'competent or powerful female character'.

Stemming from a Star Trek story written by a woman named Mary Sue, in which a new character, Ensign Mary Sue, repeatedly saved Kirk, Spock, et al. and was better at everything than the main characters, the term 'Mary Sue' refers to a newly introduced character who serves as an avatar for someone in the production staff and is made to look super competent at the expense of established characters.

So, Wesley Crusher on the first two seasons of TNG was a Mary Sue.  He was an avatar for Roddenberry who saved the day most episodes because the flag officers on the Federation flagship were blundering idiots compared to him.  Mary Sue characters show up a lot in comics in team books, especially the JL and Avengers.  New writer takes over and has an all star lineup, plus the character he created last week.  And its the writer's own characters who has to show all the established heroes how its done and becomes the star of the book.

Rey is not a Mary Sue.  Rey is a 'chosen one' character, just like Luke in the originals and Anakin in the prequels.  And like Neo in the Matrix for that matter.  Its a whole different archetype.

Burnham in the early episodes of season 1 did have some Mary Sue elements, in that she was portrayed as more competent than most other characters and had been inserted into Spock's family.  She was never, though, an avatar for anyone in the production.  And those elements were largely abandoned by the end of season one and are gone in season two.  Tilly, Saru, and Pike have all muscled her out of a lot of the spotlight, even though she is still ostensibly the star of the show.  And as the star of the show, when she gets that spotlight, its no different than when Janeway was the star of Voyager.  And nobody thought she was a Mary Sue.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 04 February 2019 at 11:26pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

What rankles for me is that the term "Mary Sue" was coined by writer Paula K. Smith back in the mid-70's to describe a very specific sort of fan character found in 'zines of that era, and it has been culturally appropriated by the backwards anti-diversity crowd as an epithet to hurl at any and all female leads, as if any strong, capable heroine is, perforce, unrealistic and cliched. 

It's complicated, but by the original definition, Rey and Michael Burnham are Mary Sues, in that they are shoehorned into the lives of existing characters and possess qualities which set them apart and often above the existing canon characters. The female Ghostbusters, however, are not Mary Sues in that they are not distilled bundles of wonderfulness who can do no wrong. No one on Ron Moore's BSG was a Mary Sue. Everyone was too immediately flawed coming out of the gate for that. 

As she appears in the comics, Captain Marvel is not a Mary Sue. She also cannot be one in the film since the film is correctly adapting her place in the super-hero canon, albeit altering her place in the timeline. Lt. Uhura also cannot be a Mary Sue. She is not newly created to serve the author's personal fantasies as a Mary Sue must be to earn that charge. "But this version of her is..." as some argue regarding the Abrams films doesn't wash. 

A Spock/Uhura romance is amateurish fan fiction, no doubt, but of a different variety. Uhura's off-the-charts "aural capabilities" would be Mary Sue-ish in a new character, but in Uhura, they're existing canon. Uhura is extremely good at her job. It isn't some sort of cliched ego-trip or blind spot for the writer to continue having her be so in a new venture. 

Michael Burnham is only a Mary Sue by virtue of her being retconned into Spock's personal history as his lil' sister. Put her in any other Vulcan family, she wouldn't be. She makes too many mistakes and fails to save the day too often to be a Mary Sue. No one aboard ship loves her for her supposedly superior capabilities. She doesn't seem to have any, in fact. She wasn't right about the qualities of the "Vulcan Hello," and didn't get to implement that tactic anyway. 

Her E.V. spacewalk doesn't make her a Mary Sue. Riker or Spock doing E.V. reconnaissance would simply have been cool. Same with Burnham. Sending the first officer out to explore an unknown is just Star Trek 101. It's triggering for those who desperately need her to be white in order to be a lead, but it does not make her a Mary Sue. Her wide-ranging fame throughout the Federation as a traitor is vaguely Mary Sue-ish, but it doesn't make the whole world love her in-story as that level of fame or infamy would do for a true Mary Sue.

Unfortunately, the actual definition of the term "Mary Sue" has been lost to time. Hate groups and reactionary whackadoodles have turned it into an epithet to use against any female character who expresses positive qualities or appears somewhere in a story they don't want her to appear. It's cultural appropriation used as a device against diversity rather than for it. My nephew tells me the same thing has happened to a meme character called Pepe the Frog. Any use of that character is now seen by those in the know as tacit and subversive support for their ugly, small-minded little causes. 

Recently, I've tried to veer away from the use of "Mary Sue" in favor of the term "writer's pet" instead when describing new characters too precious to the creators to suffer the indignity of a character flaw or an imperfect decision. I find it regrettable, however, that an artfully observed, humorously satirical phrase coined by the women of fandom of an earlier time has been stolen by the bigots and trolls of today to use as a political grenade to hurl at women. 

If they truly had any respect for the history of these franchises and the place of women within them, they'd knock it off. They are clearly incapable, however, of that level of reflection or self-awareness. Talk about being second-rate, one-dimensional cliches...

(Edited to add:  While I was blithering on and on, revising and rewriting, Steve went ahead and made the points I was trying to make and did so more succinctly. My hat is off to you, sir. We disagree on the status of Rey, but otherwise, I agree with what you've said here and thank you for it. )


Edited by Brian Hague on 05 February 2019 at 1:25am
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 05 February 2019 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

In an attempt to veer the thread back on topic, here is a newly released still of Rebecca Romijn as Number One in this week's episode.


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Tyler Kloster
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Posted: 05 February 2019 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

As much as I love the show, especially this season, I wish the Discovery crew would switch to these uniforms.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 05 February 2019 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Watching the latest episode this morning, I quickly grew tired of every scene starting with the angle askew then shifting to right side up. 
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 07 February 2019 at 9:02pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

It’s amazing how much better this show has gotten.  Another episode that felt like classic Trek.  I like the explanation for the Enterprise not having holographic communications.  I like Linus.  I like Number One.
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Tyler Kloster
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Posted: 08 February 2019 at 8:55am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

I really liked this one too, although I did feel it was the weakest of the second season. The Burnham-Saru scenes were affecting and well-acted by both, but it felt...kind of false and unearned to me. It didn't seem to be an accurate portrayal of the relationship between the characters to date,at least to me. While they have had a respect for each other's abilities, I thought it was more than a stretch for them to consider each other dear friends, let alone family.

Even there, I could have gone with it if there had been some indication in the dialogue of the past tension between them, like Saru acknowledging that he had to ultimately find a way to forgive her for their Captain's death.

But it was still really good. The show has really found itself, and I really love all the characters and the actors playing them.

Each member of the bridge crew standing in respect as Saru left gave me chills. Powerful stuff.
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Tyler Kloster
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Posted: 08 February 2019 at 9:01am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

And yes, more Linus.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 09 February 2019 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Four eps in and I'm really enjoying this! I don't know all the lore built up over the various franchises, but I catch some things, and one of the few things I have on DVD is the original The Cage pilot with Gene Roddenberry intros and alternate edit etc. so it's cool to see the old Number 1 here! I take it this is sort of fitting in between Enterprise (which I've never watched much of really), and the reboot films? I loved the weird 'shroom high bit in Ep. 4, though glad they didn't have it go on for too long. :^/


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 09 February 2019 at 5:23pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 09 February 2019 at 11:55pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

The latest episode is another that felt more like classic Trek, but agree with Tyler's point that it seemed to lurch to a new point in the relationship between Burnham and Saroo without having plotted the mileage in between.

That said, the scene with Saroo struggling nobly to carry on with his duties while stricken were very affecting... And I was uncertain as to whether they were really going to go through with it and off the poor blighter. 
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 12 February 2019 at 1:49am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

"An Obol For Charon"

I feel like a grump for writing this but this week's episode encapsulated everything that ever irked me about 1990s televised STAR TREK writing and plotting:

*Technobabble overuse.   If the average episode of VOY was a techbab soup then DISCO just made a steaming pot of gumbo.

*So your universal translator goes haywire when an unknown ship/entity tries to communicate.   Your first thought should be the translator system is overloaded or unable to parse the language, not that it's an attack.   All of this seems to be a convenient set up for Michael to be the only one to make the connection and save the day.

*Why does it seem like only two people work in Engineering?  It's like the script demanded that only a few people needed to be trapped there so why bother hiring a few extras to populate the scene before the evacuation?   The Spore Drive room is probably a secondary Engineering room but all the characters talk like it's the primary one.

*Why does the resident mycobiologist casually know anything about trepanning at the drop of a hat.  Why is it useful to know the technical jargon for drilling holes in someone's head?   Characters who just suddenly have the arcane knowledge needed to resolve this week's Maguffin is pure 90s STAR TREK cheese.

*It seems like an awful lot of effort on the part of the spore species to send an 'eff you' message.   No invasion force.  Just one individual on a mission to annoy the shit out of Tilly and swallow her.  Twice.   Because, reasons.

*A cheap fake-out near-death for Saru.  Everything leading up to Saru's 'death' was fine, especially the bridge crews standing ovation and Doug Jones' acting.   The rest?  Blech.   Right up there with "Wait... Worf's secondary bypass heart and lungs kicked in, he's ALIVE!".  Smear on some unnecessary "I wub you wike famwy" icing for that extra tug.  I thought 'new' STAR TREK was beyond this type of emotionally manipulative reset button type of garbage.  I guess not.

*So no Kelpian ever in history got cold feet and waited an extra five minutes before offing themselves?  Whoever thought up naming the species after sea kelp seemed to be on to something.   Literally, they are dumber than seaweed.

*So why does Saru knowing that his people have been duped for hundreds, if not thousands of years make the Prime Directive no longer apply to his planet?   He still can't reveal where he's been for decades, the existence of other alien species, warp drive, or Starfleet.   His people need to discover on their own they are being manipulated.  His going back there to tell them that is technically a General Order One violation.

*It seems they are setting up Saru to be the 'savior' of his planet.   Yawn.   Sound familiar?   How many bridge crew/main cast of previous STAR TREK series have been 'the first/only of their species in Starfleet' or the most very important person ever in the history of their planet?  (or sometimes both!).  I hate to drag Worf out again but he's practically running the entire quadrant and sitting on the throne of Klingon Empire to boot.  Every main cast Ferengi on DS9 is a 'very important Ferengi'.   Kira pwns Bajor.   Kes is the longest living Ocampan ever and off being a god somewhere.  Odo is the most unique Changeling ever.  It's probably unfair to lump Spock in here since he was the prototype 'unique alien character'.   Every one of these most very importants has been disowned and ostracized by their own people, too.  Every. Single. One.  This STAR TREK trope is so worn out it's a trope to point out that's it's a tired trope.  Enough.   Do any average nondescript ordinary joes from the backwater boonies of their planets ever join Starfleet and not become ambassadors or find out they are the long lost child of their most important cultural figure/christ analog?  

*Ok, quoting "Space Oddity" is probably the lamest, laziest pop culture reference STAR TREK has ever done.   Really?  Is that what the writers/producers think will make people tune in?  Someone in the writer's room must have thought they were a genius between tokes -- "STAR TREK is about space, and that song is about space stuff".   Blame Johnathan Frakes for shoehorning in "Magic Carpet Ride" into FIRST CONTACT.   He started this crap.  He's the reason they want to keep shoehorning the Beastie Boys into science fiction.

*"Helm, set a course to intercept Spock's shuttle"   "Uh, sir... wasn't that information strictly top secret need-to-know and classified last week?"    "Ah, derp".

*So how many episodes do you think they will string out STAR TREK XVII:  THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK'S SHUTTLE?


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 13 February 2019 at 4:09am
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 12 February 2019 at 6:38am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

At least 3 more. 
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 14 February 2019 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Ep. 5 tonight was mostly augh!... cornball individual episode story of seconds from certain doom for all, then by 'everyone working together' they are saved and another dead character returns... oh how noble and self-sacrificing we are (but it's rewarded! there is never the sacrifice except by an alien or the extra in the red shirt, and even they will probably come back again too), then the over-all story is moved forward slightly and that part was good... but then the unseen hand of some greater power directing people on their own path thing at the end had me back to saying augh! It's like a sci-fi rom-com soap with dollops of The Manchurian Candidate really. :^|


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 14 February 2019 at 8:48pm
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 15 February 2019 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

I actually like that this season is starting to feel more like Star Trek, i.e. hopeful and the good guys win in the end.  Last season the whole 'ruthlessly killing cast members' thing just impressed me as some executive saying, "Hey, Game of Thrones and the Walking Dead are super popular, we gotta kill people off and keep the audience guessing!"  
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 15 February 2019 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

I change my answer. We won’t see Spock until the last couple of episodes. 
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