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Ron Chevrier Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1493
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| Posted: 24 April 2005 at 3:30am | IP Logged | 1
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I'm very fond of those two Action Comics
team-ups, particularly the one in which you worked with Ross Andru. I'm
curious, however, as to Doc Magnus' hostile behavior and the restricted
lab/area (I haven't read them in a while so please forgive me if my
recollection of the finer details is a bit off) which the Metal Men were forbidden to enter.
Had you any plans to follow that up in a
future story, or were you instructed to include that story
element as a prelude to the Dan Jurgens MM miniseries? According
to you, what actually would have been in the forbidden area? Also, do you have any interest/desire to work on the Metal Men in the future?
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John Byrne
Robot Wrangler
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 11662
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| Posted: 24 April 2005 at 5:28am | IP Logged | 2
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Mike Carlin had plans for the Metal Men, which he asked me to set up in the ACTION stories. I don't know if any of this was ever followed thru.
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Daniel Kendrick Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3086
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| Posted: 24 April 2005 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | 3
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IIRC it was later told that the Metal Men were
based on real people (I think Magnus' brother, his wife, and other
friends), the room that the Metal Men weren't supposed to go into
housed the real bodies.
This was told in a 93/94 mini-series written by Mike Carlin w/ Dan Jurgans doing the artwork.
Edited by Daniel Kendrick on 24 April 2005 at 2:31pm
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Troy Nunis Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4008
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| Posted: 24 April 2005 at 4:01pm | IP Logged | 4
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Worst use of Metal men ever -- the whole point of the mini was just to turn Doc Magnus into a robot so he could give the punch line, Doc Mangus Robot Fighter! ::groan::
That really needs to be undone and then something good be done with the Metal men (would really love a Metel Men series drawn by Paul Pelletier, he seems suited for it)
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Eric Kleefeld Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4057
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| Posted: 24 April 2005 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | 5
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I could swear there have been some Metal Men appearances since then that ignored the mini, but I can't quite remember for sure.
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John Donges Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 17 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 489
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| Posted: 24 April 2005 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | 6
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I know they were in Justice League Europe, issues 13 and 14? They were fighting with Metamorpho. Stagg called in a favor with Doc Magnus. Seemed odd to me at the time that he would work with slime like Stagg.
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Ron Chevrier Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1493
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| Posted: 25 April 2005 at 2:25am | IP Logged | 7
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I always thought that there was a lot of unused mileage for the Metal Men
concept, particularly with all the advances in technology in general,
and especially in the field of robotics in particular, since their
debut. I find it hard to believe that Doc Magnus, who (to my mind) should be DC's answer to Tony Stark in many ways, can only come up with six
properly functioning robots, while all the later ones have
been duds, or inexplicably (and inevitably) became menaces to
society.
Surely a man who can invent robots with their own
individual personalities can come up with other mind-boggling
inventions? How hard would it be for DC to establish Doc as the "go-to guy" for all things cybernetic? There are quite a few artificial and mechanical humanoids in the DC
universe. Hypothetically, a simple story could establish a common
connection between them through a purloined version of Doc's responsometer technology. With the exception of Cliff Steele (who was built by the Chief), characters like Amazo, the Red Tornado, Metallo, Cyborg et al could have been designed with Magnus tech as a common origin, whether legally obtained or not. At least Doc could become a more prominent character in the DCU, and by extension, the Metal Men, as well.
To my mind, it also eases the sting of Doc's inability,
according to the miniseries, to replicate or reverse the responsometer accident which created the Metal Men. If the miniseries remains a part of DCU continuity it labels his greatest creations
as little more than a horrible, tragic accident which ruined the lives
of six people, rather than the wonderous spark of creation which gave
the world six unique beings. Also, any Metal Men fans who are not all that thrilled about losing Gold, and Doc becoming a robot, please raise your hands. . .
Seriously, now that he's a robot, is Doc even allowed to own and run a company? An issue of Young Justice had Red Tornado
trying to regain custody of his adopted daughter, only to have the
judge deny him. The judge accorded him no more legal rights than
"a toaster", to paraphrase the comic. I can't see Doc as a shiny green
robot managing to hang on to his company if this is the legal status
quo in the DCU for non-biological and/or mechanical humanoids. At the
very least, Doc would have to perfect the technology to transfer his
personality into a robotic or android body which resembles his original
body, in order to keep up appearances, or disguise himself as human as
his robots often do.
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Ron Farrell Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 1519
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| Posted: 25 April 2005 at 8:36am | IP Logged | 8
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Eric Kleefeld wrote:
| I could swear there have been some Metal Men appearances since then that ignored the mini, but I can't quite remember for sure. |
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Gold, who was killed in the mini and replaced by Doc, was clearly shown with the Metal Men in IDENTITY CRISIS.
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John Bodin Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3091
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| Posted: 25 April 2005 at 8:43am | IP Logged | 9
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You know, a book like Doom Patrol just cries out for a guest appearance by the Metal Men. We've already seen Metamorpho show up in Doom Patrol, so this would just be the icing on the cake.
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John Bodin Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3091
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| Posted: 25 April 2005 at 8:46am | IP Logged | 10
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Ron Chevrier wrote:
| Also, any Metal Men fans who are not all that thrilled about losing Gold, and Doc becoming a robot, please raise your hands. . . |
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[JCB raises hand]
I'm not a HUGE fan of the Metal Men, but I've always had a real fondness for them.
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John Bodin Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3091
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| Posted: 25 April 2005 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 11
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Ron Chevrier wrote:
I always thought that there was a lot of unused mileage for the Metal Men concept, particularly with all the advances in technology in general, and especially in the field of robotics in particular, since their debut. I find it hard to believe that Doc Magnus, who (to my mind) should be DC's answer to Tony Stark in many ways, can only come up with six properly functioning robots, while all the later ones have been duds, or inexplicably (and inevitably) became menaces to society. Surely a man who can invent robots with their own individual personalities can come up with other mind-boggling inventions? How hard would it be for DC to establish Doc as the "go-to guy" for all things cybernetic? There are quite a few artificial and mechanical humanoids in the DC universe. Hypothetically, a simple story could establish a common connection between them through a purloined version of Doc's responsometer technology. With the exception of Cliff Steele (who was built by the Chief), characters like Amazo, the Red Tornado, Metallo, Cyborg et al could have been designed with Magnus tech as a common origin, whether legally obtained or not. At least Doc could become a more prominent character in the DCU, and by extension, the Metal Men, as well. |
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Good analogy on the Tony Stark angle. I was also thinking that Niles Caulder and Doc Magnus should be acquaintances at the very least. Is there much (any?) established history between the two characters?
It would be kinda cool to "update" the Metal Men to include nanotechnology as part of their basis -- similar to what was done with Amazo in the animated Justice League series. That would open the door to have Ray Palmer interact with Magnus and the Metal Men.
Lots of untapped potential here.
How does one go about getting a manuscript read at DC, Mr. Byrne?
;-)
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Ed Love Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 05 October 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1653
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| Posted: 25 April 2005 at 9:16am | IP Logged | 12
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i think it started with alan moore's swamp thing, but at dc there has
been a trend to take minor science based heroes and go mystical or at
least more metaphysical with them such as swamp thing and every
character with plant themes: floronic man, black orchid, and poison
ivey. ditko's shade and the creeper. morrison's doom patrol. the
ragman. aquaman & aqualad. and wildcat. we even have finally
switched from the science-fiction hawkman for the reincarnated egyptian
one and tying in characters like the silent knight, nighthawk, and
cinnaman into that mythos. countdown definitely seems to be implying
that we can add blue beetle to that list. meanwhile,
characters/concepts that had no superpowers have been finding
themselves gaining them such as doc magnus, the question (who also went
metaphysical), judomaster, secret six, suicide squad, pieface and soon
jean loring. i'd also include robinson's starman as he's based on a
standard science adventurer mystery man, but jack knight is more of a
new age type hero, it's a switch in style.
i didn't mind the mini in the retconned origin of the metal men, it
gives a layer of pathos while allowing the characters to contine to act
as they always have, it didn't change their personalities. however,
what was done with doc and gold did take it a step too far. part of the
conceit of the metal men was their personalities and abilities to be
reflected in their metal form. but doc's metal is completely fictional
and uber which just strikes me wrong. as well as taking away what made
him unique in that like the chief, his value and contribution was his
intellect.
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Ron Chevrier Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1493
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| Posted: 25 April 2005 at 11:50pm | IP Logged | 13
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Ed Love wrote:
=
i didn't mind the mini in the retconned origin of the metal men, it
gives a layer of pathos while allowing the characters to contine to act
as they always have, it didn't change their personalities. however,
what was done with doc and gold did take it a step too far. part of the
conceit of the metal men was their personalities and abilities to be
reflected in their metal form. but doc's metal is completely fictional
and uber which just strikes me wrong. as well as taking away what made
him unique in that like the chief, his value and contribution was his
intellect.
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The mini did three very bad things, in my opinion.
- It removed Gold from the mythos, thereby depriving the Metal Men of a decisive, capable leader, which hampers their overall effectiveness as a team in battle situations.
- It turned Doc Magnus into
a robot, which removes the human/parental element from the group, as
well as much of the quirky personality bits which result from Doc
interacting with his human-like, but
still not exactly human creations. What reason do the MM have to listen
to Doc now that he is playing on their level? To say nothing of
the possible business and legal complications which could result from
Doc suddenly becoming an object, rather than a person, as I had previously mentioned, citing the Young Justice issue.
- The most egregious crime that the miniseries committed against the franchise is that Doc Magnus has been reduced to a bumbling fool. Once he was regarded as one of the DCU's most brilliant (if occasionally unstable) minds, who created the technology to make six unique mechanical beings, and programmed them with individual
personalities, no less! Doc is now a semi-competent inventor whose best
days are behind him. His greatest creations are actually the result of
an experiment gone bad, which ruined the lives of six people, and cannot be undone. He has never come up with another great creation since the Metal Men, and since they were an accidental, unintended result, he doubtless never will.
If ever a group needed a Doom Patrol-style reworking, it's this one. Erasing the effects of the miniseries, or at least working around it (Doc Magnus
might be able to clone himself and transfer his personality,
modem-like, from his robotic body to his human body, or, what the hell,
to several human bodies at once, populating Magnus Labs with an army of himself. Gold's responsometer could be recovered and the character could be rebuilt. In battle, Doc would have to defer to Gold and
his greater experience, thereby creating tension between the two
leaders, and reviving the brother dynamic established in the miniserie
) would go a ways towards eliminating the bitter taste in mouths
of MM fans (are there many of us left?) .
As I had previously stated, it's time someone wrote a "Metal Men Secret Files" story
which clearly establishes that most of the DCU's cybernetic beings are
either wholly or partially derived from Magnus tech and designs, either
previous to the Metal Men's creation, or following it.
Also, it might be time to re-think the MM
themselves, since, following the Terminator movies, shapeshifting metal
robots are not quite as cutting edge as before. I'm not suggesting that
Iron suddenly lose his current abilities and become an 80-foot tall
Japanese robot, but as Ed stated, the MM could have adventures which
relate to current or upcoming technology.
Geez. Ask Warren Ellis or Grant Morrisson to
consult, or something. These guys have more throwaway wacky future tech
ideas than most writers put into their books.These are the kind of
ideas that Doc Magnus should
be exploring. His cutting edge should be so far beyond animated wind-up
men who turn into giant hammers that most people should get headaches
after a ten minute conversation with him. What the f**k is he wasting
his time making a new set of missle-men or whatever?
And possibly, maybe someone could write a story where Tin could stop being so frikkin' useless?
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Ron Farrell Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 1519
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 7:43am | IP Logged | 14
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Best thing to do: ignore the mini. Doc is human, Gold is "alive". They are original robots with no human counterparts.
Roll from there with the original concept.
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Moyer Hall Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 09 August 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2531
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 15
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I always though Alan Davis treatment of the Metal Men from his "Nail"
series was outstanding. I don't know if I fully know the whole backstory,
and I could be off base, but I thought he treated them with respect. And
Doc Magnus was kidnapped because of his expertise in the robot/cyborg
areana.
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Ed Aycock Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 05 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2623
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 10:48am | IP Logged | 16
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John Bodin wrote:
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You know, a book like Doom Patrol just cries out for a guest appearance by the Metal Men. We've already seen Metamorpho show up in Doom Patrol, so this would just be the icing on the cake.
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I was thinking the same thing. It'd be fun to see JB draw them all together.
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Pierce Askegren Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 18 April 2005 Posts: 254
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 17
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Doc was asserted to have built Cliff Steele's body in the "New Doom
Patrol" issues of SHOWCASE, back in the 70s -- the one that looked like
Rog-2000.
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Eric Kleefeld Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4057
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 18
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Doc Magnus was also a frequent guest in Morrison's Doom Patrol.
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3840
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| Posted: 26 April 2005 at 11:21am | IP Logged | 19
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I liked that version of Cliff, even though I had no idea how it came to be. I remember the "new" Doom Patrol in the 70s literally burying the "old" Doom Patrol...
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