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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 12 May 2019 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Brian>>The Dothraki I can understand doing it. But the soldiers from the North, no.<<

"There is a beast in every man, and it stirs when you put a sword in his hand."  --Jorah Mormont.

I find it unreasonable that an army conquering a city could be swayed by reason or ethics.  Jon tried, and had to kill people while doing it...

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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 12 May 2019 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Another problem with her is that since she reached Westeros proper, she's been acting more entitled. Last week she was upset that everyone else was talking and connecting while ignoring her. What she didn't realize is that she has done exactly nothing to gain anyone's respect or trust there. You can't just walk around acting like you own the place and ruling through `divine right' and power, if you want to endear yourself to people.

I think her madness was rushed, but there have been subtle hints at it coming. After what she did this episode, she might as well commit suicide. No way she sits on the throne for long, if at all. She proved herself worse than Cersei.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 12 May 2019 at 10:38pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply


I find it unreasonable that an army conquering a city could be swayed by reason or ethics
-------------------------------------------
A city would have no reason to cede to a siege if all inside would be put to the sword either way. The whole medieval idea of 'guilty in defence' hinges on mercy being given if you open your gates. 
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 12:19am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Lots of negative reviews and fan reactions around, but I was mostly Ok with it.

It was filmed beautifully IMHO, surprisingly by the same director that botched the battle of Winterfell.

Daenerys' rampage was totally in character for me, she already decided she was going to burn the city to the ground a long time ago no matter what her counselors said. More like ex counselors. The only ones she fully trusted were Missandei and Jorah and they're both dead. Varys is (more than justifiably) dead by her own hand and Tyrion is over. She gave Jon one more chance and he once again handled it with very little intelligence. She's alone. Let it burn.

Seeing the Unsullied, Dothraki and even the northeners butcher an army that had surrendered and innocent people was hard to watch, but not without logic. War is hell, there are no good guys, everyone loses. If your queen goes on a rampage you follow her. Not a lot of love for King's Landing and what it represents from everyone involved. Even Jon was reluctantly killing a-plenty.

Jamie and Cersei had an okay ending, in their own terms and with Cersei even showing some humanity. I prefer that than to have Arya kill her or whatever. I was never very invested in Clegane Bowl but I guess it was Ok too.

On the inconsistencies front Euron teleported once again to Jamie and met his stupid end for his stupid character (where's Yara by the way? Just chilling in the Iron Islands?). Last week Rhaegar was the most vulnerable creature on earth and the Iron Fleet were the most accurate dragon shooters ever, getting three hits out of three and one dragon down. This week Drogon is an unstoppable killing machine that deals with the same fleet and the crossbows in the city in less than a minute. Ok... it's just useless to complain now, one more episode to go!






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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 2:17am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Well...so much for my theory.  My crow sandwich is delicious....

And with that said I was left wondering how Drogon could decimate an entire navy and city laden with the weapons that easily took out his brother?  Suddenly nobody can load a scorpion quick enough.  Nobody can aim well enough.  Maybe the scorpion only works if a dragon doesn’t know its being targeted?  Dany diving out of the sun was a clever tactic however.  Well played, Mother of Dragons.  Drogon’s plot armor showed it’s strength.  

Dany went Sith Lord on us.  
She is a true Targaryen.  And she currently rules a pile of ashes.  I wonder how this news plays in Winterfell?  There is no love lost between the north and Kings Landing, but thousands of innocent people are nothing more than charcoal.  Sansa has her work cut out for her.

I applauded Euron’s apparent demise at a level I thought I’d reserve for winning a modest lottery jackpot.  Worst character ever.

I thought they were going to have the audacity to kill the best character on the show with this episode.  I was relived to see Arya alive.  Looks like death rides a pale horse back to Winterfell.


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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 4:57am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I was not on board with Mad Queen Dany, but I was OK with her heel turn in this episode. While it was a horrible, impulsive decision, I understood the logic behind it. The people of Westeros would never love her the way the North loves Jon Snow. The people of King's Landing did not stand up against Cersei the way that the people of Slavers' Bay stood up against their former masters. Her choices were heartless and cruel, but they weren't completely irrational.
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 5:45am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

 David Allen Perrin wrote:
Drogon’s plot armor showed it’s strength.


I saw that stuff as more about Euron's fleet losing the plot armor that protected them last week. (It's a shame Yara couldn't have gotten in on the action, though.) There's an argument to be made that King's Landing went down a little too easily, but OTOH the argument has been for awhile that Daenerys' forces could destroy the place in a heartbeat. It's just that nice queens try to avoid collateral damage.   

Anyway, hamfisted foreshadowing this season aside, Daenerys has generally seen people as being in one of two groups: a) faithful subjects and b) barbeque. So her "turn" this week was hardly unexpected. I just would have preferred a more direct and immediate inciting event than her apparent distaste for bells.

It wouldn't have to be much. It could be as dramatic as one last Scorpion being fired from the bell tower while the bells were ringing or as mild as a civilian throwing something at Grey Worm. Just... something to transition us from "focus the attack on the troops and armaments" to "screw it, we're burning it all".

As for the rest of the episode, I liked it. Lots of long awaited casualties this time and I was generally good with the way they went out.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 7:02am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

A city would have no reason to cede to a siege if all inside would be put to the sword either way. The whole medieval idea of 'guilty in defence' hinges on mercy being given if you open your gates. 
------------------------------------------------------------ --
Medieval history is full of cases of cities being sacked and destroyed despite surrendering because the soldiers got out of hand.  See for example Jerusalem in the First Crusade and Constantinople in the Fourth.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 7:04am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Absolutely loved this episode.  Paid off a lot of character subplots damn near perfectly.

On another note, why is Dany crazy?  She didn't seem crazy at all to me.  Grief stricken, sure.  Tired of being betrayed by everyone close to her, sure.  Vindictive, vengeful, and cruel (which she's been since day one), sure.  But what she did wasn't crazy.  She took terrible revenge on the people of the city that murdered her entire family and her closest friend.
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Marc Foxx
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 7:44am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Full-on Jacobean revenge tragedy! No one is getting out of this thing alive...
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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Is it simply too easy to assume Arya kills Dany?

That's just too 'on the nose', right?
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 10:28am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Is it simply too easy to assume Arya kills Dany?

That's just too 'on the nose', right?

I for one, would groan at that happening. Arya had her big heroic moment offing the Night King, to use her again for Dany would be lazy.

I'd rather see Bran doing something useful for a change. If he doesn't I don't understand his whole arc and all the Three Eyed Raven stuff we had to endure for eight seasons.
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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

You may recall Dany's vision in the House of the Undying (below) where she saw the Red Keep in ruins, so that's happened.  Now about that snow.  Just weather?  Something more ominous?
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 10:57am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

"I will take back what is mine through blood and fire." - Dany in Season 1 ep 10.  Yeah, super sudden turn.

Pretty much the only thing that could ruin this series for me now would be if Tyrion ended up becoming a lumberjack.
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

 Steve De Young wrote:
"I will take back what is mine through blood and fire." - Dany in Season 1 ep 10. Yeah, super sudden turn.


It's not like there wasn't plenty of "blood and fire" by the time the bells were ringing. What people are questioning is why, at her moment of triumph, she sat there, took a moment to think and then decided to keep going with the blood and fire.
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Adam Hutchinson
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

I don’t find it out of character at all for Dany to have gone all scorched
earth on King’s Landing. As stated her viciousness as been on full
display since season 1.

She finally goes “Fire and Blood” while staring at a physical
representation of not just her life’s goals but also everything that was
violently taken from her and her family. She’s also come to the
realization that her “moment of triumph” comes after all of those she
trusts have either been killed or are in the process of betraying her
(from her POV), two of her three children have been killed; she finds
out that a) her’s isn’t the best claim to the throne, b) she hasn’t been
greeted as a liberator as she was raised to believe, and c) despite
having played a major role in saving the world, at great personal cost,
all of that glory and “love” went to Jon.
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

It's not like there wasn't plenty of "blood and fire" by the time the bells were ringing. What people are questioning is why, at her moment of triumph, she sat there, took a moment to think and then decided to keep going with the blood and fire

If I were Dany I wouldn't think in a million years that just because the bells rang and the Golden Company surrendered that means Cersei would turn herself in quietly with no backup plan (that she apparently hadn't one bothered me quite a bit, we had plenty of evidence that she would happily burn down the whole thing down herself rather than surrender it). 

Also, it was a display of power which we also know is something Daenerys is not above. These people don't know her, everybody in her entourage seems to be having treasonous thoughts, after seeing this anyone trying to overthrow her will be thinking it twice.

This is fantasy medieval warfare, it's surprising to me that people are being that sensitive about it, what did they expect? Daenerys to respect the Geneva Convention? 


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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

I think Daenerys was always headed in this direction. The signs were there from pretty early on. 
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

You may recall Dany's vision in the House of the Undying (below) where she saw the Red Keep in ruins, so that's happened.  Now about that snow.  Just weather?  Something more ominous?

——-

I thought about that scene when ash was falling all around Arya. If that’s not what the snow was meant to be, then it’s about Jon or the North. 
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Just doesn't ring true for me. We have seen here reduced to having basically nothing on many occasions — things far more challenging than Jon won't love me back or the people might not love me — and she has always dealt with it without going to pieces. Yes, she has dealt with actual transgressors without pity, but wholesale slaughter of innocents? I don't recall that. I recall her taking pity on Mirri Maz Duur. I recall her always seeking the Iron Throne and demanding that people bend the knee. When the bells rang, she had the Iron Throne. She had her enemies bending the knee.

When a Targaryen is born, the Gods flip a coin. They harkened back to this, but it seemed like a misrepresentation. Flipping a coin is binary. It is either heads or tails. It doesn't come up heads and then flip at some point down the line to tails. The difference between Daenerys and Viserys was night and day. Viserys was weak and deluded. Daenerys was strong and unflappable. Cold and harsh at times, but not given to histrionics.

Save her, George RR Martin, you're her only hope!
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Just doesn't ring true for me. We have seen here reduced to having basically nothing on many occasions — things far more challenging than Jon won't love me back or the people might not love me — and she has always dealt with it without going to pieces.

——-

Did she go to pieces though? She made a cruel choice, which she has done before, even with calming voices like Jorah, Selmy, and Missandei. From the first season, she planned to invade Westeros with an army of horse-lords known for raping and pillaging. Do you think she would have been able to single-handedly prevent any innocents from being harmed if her original plan had gone through?
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Well, if she hasn't gone nuts, then I buy it more. Seemed to me like she had taken leave of her senses, but we'll see.

In terms of not being able to prevent any innocents being harmed, point taken, but there is a difference between that and the wholesale punishment that we saw being dished out intentionally on civilians after the surrender of the military forces.


Edited by Peter Martin on 13 May 2019 at 6:42pm
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Why is it so hard for so many viewers to believe that Dany would lose her mind after losing Jorah, Missandei, her closest friends, two of her dragons, creatures she considers to be her children,  and after her paranoia of being betrayed? All this, and her bloodline being notorious for madness? Never mind that going mad doesn't have to make sense, since being insensible is a result of madness.

Losing just one person close to you can drive a person insane in some instances.  Dany has dealt with much more than that.

And Jaimie is another situation where I hear some viewers complaining about his turn. The guy never became a saint. He cares about his family,  and always did, but except for taking a liking to Brenne, he really didn't do much of anything that didn't involve the interests of his family or his own self-interests. For me, his returning to be with Cersei was more real than going to kill her himself. 


Edited by Matt Hawes on 13 May 2019 at 7:26pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 8:21pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Why is it so hard for so many viewers to believe that Dany would lose her mind after losing Jorah, Missandei, her closest friends, two of her dragons, creatures she considers to be her children
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------
Well she didn't lose her mind after the loss of her actual child, did she?

As for losing Jorah, she had banished him before, presumably prepared to never see him again at that point. Didn't lose her mind then.

We have repeatedly been presented a character that has stood up to the worst stresses and withstood them in a robust manner. Sold, raped, tricked out of her husband, starved, tricked by witches and warlocks, lost, besieged and always remained resilient.



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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 10:19pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

People, even the most resilient people, have their breaking points.

But, hey... if the turn didn't work for you, that's not going to make me lose it. ;-)

I am curious as to how George R R Martin will handle things in the books. An online reviewer said something I wondered about: Will the reception by fans to how things have played out on the TV series affect the way Martin might have been going with his story in the yet-to-be released books?

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