Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
TV
Byrne Robotics > TV << Prev Page of 11 Next >>
Topic: Game of Thrones Final Season Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12768
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 6:19am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

One question: Is "Dany" actually called "Dany" by other characters on the show?

----

Yes.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Christopher Frost
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 24 October 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 323
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 6:28am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

And so it goes....




Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3253
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 7:09am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I think Jon Snow's character is a thinly veiled commentary on Aragorn, and him being the rightful heir to the throne is obviously a massive part of that.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12768
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 7:22am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Can we just acknowledge that Bran Stark is an evil mastermind who has been playing everyone all along?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10419
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 8:08am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Back to Top profile | search
 
Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1604
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 10:53am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I do think it interesting from a story-telling standpoint that 80+? hours of television based (effectively) off 4 books can seem "rushed" but some massive tomes adapted into 2 or 3 hour movies can seem interminable. Peter Jackson's 47 part Hobbit series comes to mind as an example of a poor use of time.

I would say "it went by so fast" is a feature in that light. 
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 303
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Wow, I'm surprised most of you guys seemed to like it but that's also what I like about this forum. In most discussions I'm in the minority around here and it's great because it makes me re evaluate my opinions a lot. So thanks for that, I really mean it.

Elsewhere on the digital realm a lot of people seem to agree with me on this issue, so I know I'm not completely crazy so all is well. Anyway, back to business:

How were the White Walkers unnecessary? They drove the entire plotline with the Night's Watch and the Wall. Just because they were defeated two episodes before the finale, it doesn't mean they were irrelevant.

They were irrelevant in the way they could've been replaced with any other non-supernatural threat. Why introduce a zombie frozen army that comes out of nowhere and then have them defeated offhandedly and never explain who they were or why did they exist? All the "Winter is Coming", the prophecies... amounted to basically nothing. It ended being another "Mad King" storyline, one that had already been told without zombies being necessary. 

His being the male heir to throne was an existential threat to Dany's own claim which, in part, led to her burning down King's Landing.

Weak sauce. It was presented as a HUGE revelation and its consequence was to "in part", "supposedly", influence Dany in that moment and that's it?

Sure there was. Dany was going to keep "liberating" parts of Westeros, and it was clear that her idea of "liberating" involved more bloodshed. As Tyrion pointed out, if Dany decided to "liberate" Winterfell, what would happen to Sansa and Arya, who clearly were never going to bend the knee? Dany would have killed them.

LOTS of supposition there. Remember this is the woman Jon loved. The same woman that constantly approached Sansa in order to get along. She would've "just killed them"? Really? Cause she's "loco"? I get that the show was trying to sell that, but based on the character I've seen on screen for seven seasons I'm not buying it in a million years.

Tyrion wasn't given the choice of who should be King. He was there representing House Lannister, as the remaining heir.

Tyrion and Jon even being alive at that point is ludicrous. Remember ol' Varys. I don't see how being the remaining heir of a house everyone hated would've changed that.

With Dany dead, what else should they do? None of them really had any interest in Westeros. They were all fighting one woman's war.

We're talking about the Dothraki and the Unsullied here. You really think their natural reaction would be "Aw shucks, let's get going then"?

It was abundantly clear that Dany would never let the North be independent.

It wasn't. You could clearly see her struggling with the thought in the Winterfell episodes. A nudge from Jon and it could've had happened. Tangentially, Sansa just declares independence in the meeting and all the other houses go "okay"? Wouldn't the Iron Islands and Dorne at least go "hey, we'd like some independence too?"

The significance of Jon being a Targaryen is massive....but untapped.

Haha, good one.

Drogon broke the wheel.  

No he didn't. Apart form the ludicrous reasoning that a dragon could understand the symbolic nature of a metal chair, burning it changed nothing. There's still a King, he has the same kind of inept advisors that the previous kings had, and now there are six kingdoms instead of seven (Drogon would've known that was going to happen? They should make HIM King then). No wheels being broken at all.

Tyrion was saved because despite his numerous mistakes...he still is one of the most insightful people in Westeros. 

Haha, good one.

Tyrion was made the Hand by Bran to atone for his screw ups

Yeah, I heard the dialogue too. Still, in life and the coherent show this used to be you don't get a third opportunity after massively screwing up including the murder of Tywin and the treason to Dany. No matter how much people like you.

Jon was spared because NOBODY hates Jon.

Again, not a popularity contest. This is GAME OF THRONES, not MEAN GIRLS. Jaime lived like a pariah because he killed a King that by most accounts was actually mad, but we love Jon because he killed a queen that was also his lover, and was brutal but not "mad" by any means?

While we're on the subject of Jon, I would like to ask the Lord of Light a question: hey, why did you RETURN THIS GUY FROM THE DEAD, for it to be revealed to him that he's actually the rightful heir to the throne by blood?

Answer: Oh, that? So that he can fulfill his glorious destiny of going back to where he came from with his wildling friends and pet his dog, of course! Mysterious ways, y'all!
 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Benny Hasa
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 January 2011
Posts: 712
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 11:16am | IP Logged | 8 post reply



IMDB ratings for every episode.  
Back to Top profile | search
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11593
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 11:58am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I feel the show didn't really put a foot wrong in its first four seasons. I wasn't particularly enamoured with all the gumph with the High Sparrow and the Faith Militant in seasons 5 and 6. The high body count does ultimately make it seem like it's been one big shaggy dog story, one with many dead-ends.

Was it my imagination or did we see a resurrected Catelyn Stark at the end of one season and then never hear of her again? I'm not sure if it's my memory playing tricks. I don't see it mentioned in any season recaps.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3253
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Even if those ratings are accurate, its a share, not an actual number, and at least in the case of the most recent episode, is only a live viewing rating.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3253
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Its your memory playing tricks, Peter.  Lady Stoneheart is a major character in the books, but has never been so much as referenced in the show.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 303
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Watching this video is just so depressingly funny now, they were right all along

3 Minutes of the Game of Thrones Cast Being Disappointed by Season 8:


Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12768
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply


 QUOTE:
How were the White Walkers unnecessary? They drove the entire plotline with the Night's Watch and the Wall. Just because they were defeated two episodes before the finale, it doesn't mean they were irrelevant.

They were irrelevant in the way they could've been replaced with any other non-supernatural threat. Why introduce a zombie frozen army that comes out of nowhere and then have them defeated offhandedly and never explain who they were or why did they exist? All the "Winter is Coming", the prophecies... amounted to basically nothing. It ended being another "Mad King" storyline, one that had already been told without zombies being necessary.

Sure. The White Walkers could have been a non-supernatural horde that threatened Westeros. What's your point?


 QUOTE:
Sure there was. Dany was going to keep "liberating" parts of Westeros, and it was clear that her idea of "liberating" involved more bloodshed. As Tyrion pointed out, if Dany decided to "liberate" Winterfell, what would happen to Sansa and Arya, who clearly were never going to bend the knee? Dany would have killed them.

LOTS of supposition there. Remember this is the woman Jon loved. The same woman that constantly approached Sansa in order to get along. She would've "just killed them"? Really? Cause she's "loco"? I get that the show was trying to sell that, but based on the character I've seen on screen for seven seasons I'm not buying it in a million years.

No supposition. Sansa asked for the North to be independent, and Dany pretty much blew her off. I'd suggest rewatching the series, because Dany killed everyone who refused to bend the knee to her. Perhaps you've been watching a different show?


 QUOTE:
Tyrion wasn't given the choice of who should be King. He was there representing House Lannister, as the remaining heir.

Tyrion and Jon even being alive at that point is ludicrous. Remember ol' Varys. I don't see how being the remaining heir of a house everyone hated would've changed that.

What about Varys? Dany gave the order to execute him. Whose orders would Grey Worm have followed to execute Tyrion and Jon? He didn't know. That's was the whole point of deferring to the lords of Westeros.


 QUOTE:
With Dany dead, what else should they do? None of them really had any interest in Westeros. They were all fighting one woman's war.

We're talking about the Dothraki and the Unsullied here. You really think their natural reaction would be "Aw shucks, let's get going then"?

Neither army wanted to be in Westeros. Grey Worm was planning to take off with Missandei to Naath after Dany won the Iron Throne. The Unsullied have no independent ambitions of their own. As for the Dothraki, by their laws, their line of succession for leadership is based on defeating the previous Khal, which would have left Jon Snow in charge?


 QUOTE:
It was abundantly clear that Dany would never let the North be independent.

It wasn't. You could clearly see her struggling with the thought in the Winterfell episodes. A nudge from Jon and it could've had happened.

Again, you were watching a very different show. If anything, Dany was struggling with how to politely tell Sansa to fuck off.


 QUOTE:
Tangentially, Sansa just declares independence in the meeting and all the other houses go "okay"? Wouldn't the Iron Islands and Dorne at least go "hey, we'd like some independence too?"

Sansa was smart enough to wait until everyone else committed before saying anything.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 303
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Sure. The White Walkers could have been a non-supernatural horde that threatened Westeros. What's your point?

I'm not the one that introduced an undead frozen army and declared it the biggest menace ever in this world's history with prophecies all around. I don't have a point. Hoped as hell the show did, though.

No supposition. Sansa asked for the North to be independent, and Dany pretty much blew her off. I'd suggest rewatching the series, because Dany killed everyone who refused to bend the knee to her. Perhaps you've been watching a different show?

Same show. The same show that had Sansa and Arya's "brother" fall in love with this woman and convinced everyone to fight for her. The guy who was offered a very privileged position in the new government that would surely prevent his sisters and his home to be "just killed" on a whim. Same freakin' show.

Whose orders would Grey Worm have followed to execute Tyrion and Jon? He didn't know. That's was the whole point of deferring to the lords of Westeros.

So the guy who had just been declared commander of the Queen's forces, pledged his life to her multiple times and who we've seen ten minutes ago slitting throats left and right for her sees her getting murdered, catches the guy (I'm assuming Jon just turned himself in and confessed, in his stupid usual manner) and goes: "Geee... what to do, what to do? I'd better consult THE LORDS OF WESTEROS, a group of people my Queen didn't have any respect for in general that used to rule in the kingdom we just overtook?" Different interpretation of the character, I guess.

As for the Dothraki, by their laws, their line of succession for leadership is based on defeating the previous Khal, which would have left Jon Snow in charge?

I don't know if shiving her by surprise in the middle of a kiss (!) counts as "defeating the previous Khal" but maybe you're technically right. Anyhow, great move from Jon, huh? As I've said, clearly the honorable thing to do. What a satisfying conclusion for his arc.

Again, you were watching a very different show. If anything, Dany was struggling with how to politely tell Sansa to fuck off.

So this mad power hungry queen who would've killed everybody, including the man she loved and his sisters on a whim NO DOUBT, suddenly cared about politeness? Wow, I guess these characters are not one dimensional after all, despite the last episode trying to establish that they were.

Sansa was smart enough to wait until everyone else committed before saying anything.

Have you ever been on a meeting before?





Edited by Rodrigo castellanos on 20 May 2019 at 1:19pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11593
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Its your memory playing tricks, Peter.
----------------------------------------
It must have been an epilogue in one of the books I'm thinking of... Weird; the memory is so visual!
Back to Top profile | search
 
David Allen Perrin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 2704
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

I was rather indifferent about the finale until Rodrigo's posts.  

Now I'm finding it more appealing and will watch it again to tonight.

Thanks, Rodrigo!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 303
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Thanks, Rodrigo!

Glad to be of service :) Enjoy!

Even if those ratings are accurate, its a share, not an actual number, and at least in the case of the most recent episode, is only a live viewing rating.

If I'm understanding correctly those numbers are not viewing ratings, but IMDB user ratings of how much they liked the episode in a scale from 1 to 10.

Different strokes and everything but the fans and critics reaction (whether on IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic, etc) points to the finale being mediocre to bad.

Does that tarnish the entire show? Definitely not, I've said it myself a few pages before. But it's not a hit, as most people didn't find it satisfying.

So now the "defense" I've been seeing today is that it was an impossible task, that there was no way to stick the landing and meet everyone's expectations.

And I could've bought that if I hadn't seen AVENGERS ENDGAME a month before. They did it. They stuck the landing of various complex storylines in a universe revered by millions of fans. Home run. So the timing also makes the GOT showrunners look bad.


Back to Top profile | search
 
Benny Hasa
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 January 2011
Posts: 712
Posted: 20 May 2019 at 4:20pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Posting this from Blu-ray.com.  Many valid points. 

  • Tyrion would not have found Jaime and Cersei under all the rubble we clearly saw falling in the previous episode. It provides closure for the audience, but no way did he just find them like that.
  • How did Grey Worm beat Jon Snow to Daenerys just before her speech? He was methodically executing prisoners of war moments ago.
  • Why is Jon Snow allowed to talk to Tyrion, the traitor, without some kind of guard like Grey Worm present?
  • Why does Jon Snow even try to justify Daenerys's genocide? I mean, love the girl, fine, but she just killed a million people in cold blood. That's not a salvageable situation.
  • Everything about how Drogon is handled is ridiculous. Breathing fire randomly, even at the Iron Throne, makes less sense than either killing Jon Snow or becoming submissive to the new Targaryen master. Flying off into the great horizon and not returning to Jon Snow after melting the throne (and not killing Jon Snow) is bonkers.
  • The Dothraki, which we clearly see before Daenerys's speech, would have immediately followed their new Khal, Jon Snow, after he killed the Khaleesi. That's their culture. They would not have allowed the Unsullied to capture Jon Snow, and as such Grey Worm would not have time for yelling at Tyrion.
  • Water bottles. Water bottles everywhere.
  • Tyrion not nominating Jon Snow to be king is his worst mistake ever. Jon Snow is demonstrably honest, loyal, and is willing to make hard decisions even if it breaks his heart. Bran is a dispassionate sociopath who could be convinced through cold hard logic to murder plenty of people under the right circumstances.
  • Failing Jon Snow, Sansa Stark is the next obvious choice. Really, all of the Starks other than Bran have better stories than his, despite Tyrion's speech.
  • Bran's first act as king is to undermine the stability of his kingdom by granting an unreasonable request to separate the North from Westeros. There's nothing after that point keeping any other part of the kingdom intact, as they could just say, "Well, we don't want to kneel either. We've been through some hard stuff too." Everyone accepts this division of the kingdom at just a mere nod of the head? Nobody else wants to separate? Why does King's Landing still hold any power now that all of its populace evaporated due to sudden genocide?
  • After Grey Worm leaves, there's no reason why Jon Snow has to leave and/or why he couldn't be king. Seriously. Everybody other than the Unsullied has a very good reason to love and/or follow Jon Snow.
  • If Bran has been secretly plotting this whole time ("Why do you think I came all the way here?") to be king, why then do we get literally zero explanation from the show's creators over its entire existence as to his motivation? Why does he want to be king at all? Why even accept?
  • Bronn as master of Highgarden and master of Coin makes zero sense other than to save Tyrion. Everybody just goes along with this long-term? I can't imagine everybody in Highgarden just letting Bronn run things in perpetuity.
  • What happened with the Children of the Forest? Are they linked to Bran somehow? Why did any of the multitude of things the show previously built up matter at all now that we just rushed to an illogical conclusion?
  • Back to Top profile | search
     
    Rick Senger
    Byrne Robotics Member
    Avatar

    Joined: 16 April 2004
    Location: United States
    Posts: 8353
    Posted: 20 May 2019 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

    IMDB votes are opened up at any time after the show airs and will continue pouring in for years to come.  They do not represent any one moment in time but a cross section that becomes more representational over time (particularly with more votes).  Initial voters tend to be the more passionate ones and I would note the cross section of votes so far seem to run between either really loved it or really hated it. 

    I guess I'm in the middle.  It hit some of the broad strokes it needed to (Dany had to die, Jon had to do it and he then had to be exiled), but for the final episode somehow the execution felt thin and uninspired overall. 

    My favorite moment was the animated dragon's reaction to Dany's murder, which was both heartbreaking and terrifying.  Great stuff and cool to have the throne melted down (and the wheel broken) by a dragon since it was a dragon who originally melted the materials down to create it hundreds of years earlier. 

    Hard to put my finger on why, but I didn't like the climactic gathering to decide the next King.  Bran's selection was certainly surprising so I give them kudos for balls picking arguably one of the more passive and vulnerable characters in the entire show's run.   But he also felt like an unlikely and somehow unsatisfying choice.

    Bran may not have been "born to be a king" but other than his harrowing time out in the frozen wasteland (where he did little but burden his companions and not listen to Max Von Sydow), he has lived a life largely removed from contact with the "real world" and its day to day realities, so Tyrion's proclamation doesn't quite ring true.  Certainly sheltered kings can be carry out the business of state successfully but Bran seems a cold and dispassionate fish who doesn't relate to others at all.  He might make and excellent analyst / adviser but he doesn't seem like "King material" to me.

    He has observed and sifted through much information as the Three Eyed Raven but there is a difference between the indirectness of watching television versus actively going out in the world, interacting with people and experiencing life and its consequences firsthand.  He's not shallow or a coward (far from it) and it's possible he could wind up being one of the most balanced and fair-minded choices possible.  He certainly demonstrated the long view and compassion in his interaction with Jamie.   It could work out. 

    But somehow I don't get a sense of the breadth of experience or anything approaching passion from him.  Even though he's been around the periphery, I feel like I don't really know him (he barely talks and he wasn't even in the show for a season.)  More to the point, as one of the most deeply introspective, walled-off and reserved nerds in the show it's hard to see the Seven Kingdoms rallying behind Bran the Broken.  Besides Sansa, it seems like none of the major players from the deciding group has even had that much time with Bran to know him well enough to entrust him with that level of power.  Tyrion knows him some (but he betrayed the Queen) and Jon certainly knows him (but he murdered the Queen).

    The showrunners painted themselves into a corner once it became clear that neither Dany nor Jon could really be ruler.   I get that Aria wouldn't want the crown and Tyrion would be too problematic, but Sansa certainly seems wise enough though was perhaps too obvious a choice.  Still, Bran just doesn't feel like the right choice for me.
    Back to Top profile | search e-mail
     
    Steve De Young
    Byrne Robotics Member
    Avatar

    Joined: 01 April 2008
    Location: United States
    Posts: 3253
    Posted: 20 May 2019 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

    Benny, people who nitpick plot holes like that don’t understand how fiction works.  So their ‘opinions’ are irrelevant to everything.  That’s not how literary and film criticism work.
    Back to Top profile | search
     
    Mike Benson
    Byrne Robotics Member
    Avatar

    Joined: 04 January 2010
    Location: United States
    Posts: 465
    Posted: 20 May 2019 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

    Same show. The same show that had Sansa and Arya's "brother" fall in love with this woman and convinced everyone to fight for her. The guy who was offered a very privileged position in the new government that would surely prevent his sisters and his home to be "just killed" on a whim. Same freakin' show.

    ******

    If you think any of that would keep someone safe, even on a “whim,” you have been watching a different show.  

    I get the nerd rage. It was inevitable once the show became popular, given the nature of the internet.  

    And I get that people are saddened by Dany’s ending.  It was incredibly tragic.  But anyone who thinks her behavior was out of left field hasn’t been paying attention.  As someone, I believe Tyrion, poInts out, it just seemed different when she was doing these things far away, to foreign people. 




    Edited by Mike Benson on 20 May 2019 at 5:44pm
    Back to Top profile | search
     
    Rodrigo castellanos
    Byrne Robotics Member
    Avatar

    Joined: 03 July 2012
    Location: Uruguay
    Posts: 303
    Posted: 20 May 2019 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

    - "You've been watching a different show"

    - "Mmm, but the vast majority of professional critics agree with ME, though..."

    Been dying to use this meme :D
    Humor, people. If you loved it that's great, I envy you. Wish I could've.

    Back to Top profile | search
     
    Benny Hasa
    Byrne Robotics Member
    Avatar

    Joined: 12 January 2011
    Posts: 712
    Posted: 20 May 2019 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

    Benny, people who nitpick plot holes like that don’t understand how fiction works.  So their ‘opinions’ are irrelevant to everything.  That’s not how literary and film criticism work.

    ***

    Nope. 
    Back to Top profile | search
     
    Benny Hasa
    Byrne Robotics Member
    Avatar

    Joined: 12 January 2011
    Posts: 712
    Posted: 20 May 2019 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

    At the end of the day, everyone is entitled to their opinions and HOPEFULLY people can be respectful to those opinions especially in regard to works of fiction. 

    At the end of the day,  I thought this season was an utter mess on numerous levels.  It had its moments, but at the end of the day it felt like I was watching a mess of two writers who didn't know how to end the damn thing.  A true shame as there was so much potential to this season. 

    If you loved it, great.  If you were in the middle, great.  If you hated it, great. Everyone is going to feel different about it, but at least people are passionate enough to talk about it. 
    Back to Top profile | search
     
    Mike Benson
    Byrne Robotics Member
    Avatar

    Joined: 04 January 2010
    Location: United States
    Posts: 465
    Posted: 20 May 2019 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

    Yeah, I’m going to bow out of any discussion when something like “the vast majority of professional critics agree with me” gets thrown out.  
    Back to Top profile | search
     

    << Prev Page of 11 Next >>
      Post ReplyPost New Topic
    Printable version Printable version

    Forum Jump
    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot create polls in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum

     Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login