Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 7 Next >>
Topic: Q for JB: Edward De Vere Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12440
Posted: 23 April 2019 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Here is the description of a book from 2008 by an author who does not doubt Shaksper was Shakespeare:


 QUOTE:
Shakespeare and the Nobility examines how Shakespeare was influenced by the descendants of the aristocratic characters in his early history plays. The Henry VI trilogy and Richard III are among the first plays in the English dramaturgy that reflect the lives and activities of the ancestors of sixteenth-century aristocrats. In a time when the upper classes of England were obsessed with family lineage and reputation, the salient question is how William Shakespeare, a socially inferior playwright and actor, handled the delicate matter of portraying the complex and often unattractive ancestors of the most powerful people of his day. In answer to this question, this study examines the lives of the historical figures and their descendants, presenting fresh readings of the early histories, and argues that Shakespeare consistently modified his portrayal of the ancestors with their descendants in mind.
[emphasis added]

Somehow, Will Shaksper, "a socially inferior playwright and actor" got away with depicting the "often unattractive ancestors of the most powerful people of his day" -- or -- William Shakespeare got away with it because he... came from their ranks...!?



Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132288
Posted: 23 April 2019 at 8:27pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

If Shakespeare becomes De Vere, he also becomes the son-in-law of William Cecil, Lord Burley, the most powerful man in Elizabeth’s court, and therefore in England. A man who did not hesitate to crush anyone he thought threatened or potentially embarrassed the Crown.

Scholars have wondered for centuries how the country bumpkin got away with his often savage skewering of the nobility. Cast instead a member of that nobility, under Burley’s protection, and the question disappears.

Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132288
Posted: 23 April 2019 at 8:31pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

There's a difference between a country, and its dominions or territories. Moreover, the extent of Bohemia's dominion, as I understand it, was for a brief period in the 13th century.

•••

Since that is noted in the passage I quoted, I would certainly hope you “understand” it!

Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132288
Posted: 24 April 2019 at 7:35am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Speaking of ancestors, it is interesting to note that one of De Vere's fought in the War of the Roses--on the losing side. He goes unmentioned in Shakespeare's "reporting" of the events.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132288
Posted: 24 April 2019 at 7:56am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I want to take a moment to address something I've touched on before. This quote is from a review of the 100 REASONS book cited above:

"In this work about Edward de Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford, the competing theories—proposing Francis Bacon, Christopher Marlowe, William Stanley, the Earl of Derby, and, of course, Shakespeare himself—are given their day in court as well."

Did you see it? This is why the defense of De Vere is such an uphill slog. The Stratfordians have already claimed their place on the top, and done so by an exercise so simple most people don't even notice it. They call their man "Shakespeare".

This is, of course, the common, preferred spelling of the byline on the plays, poems and sonnets, but it is not how it was first presented to the public, and, from the available records, it would seem to have not even been the way the Stratford Man commonly spelled his own name. In documents, including six signatures (one disputed) he mostly uses multiple variants on the pronunciation "Shaxsper". That was the common Warwickshire version of the time.

(How do we know how words were pronounced in Elizabethan times? Simple. The spelling of words and names had not yet been formalized, so scribes would spell them as they heard them, sometimes in more than one way on the same page. From the multiple iterations of the Stratford Man's name in various documents, we know how he preferred to pronounce it.)

It is significant, then, that the first time we find the name "Shakespeare" on the Works, it is not quite in the familiar form. It appears as "Shake-speare", which. I have noted before, while not an uncommon form of a hyphenated name, takes on new meaning when we consider that in Elizabethan theater the hyphen followed by a lowercase letter (as opposed to "Shake-Speare") was sometimes used to indicate a made-up name. Perhaps meaningless. Perhaps not.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 562
Posted: 24 April 2019 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Lots of ground to cover - sorry about the late reply, the problems of working full time and different time zones!

Mark Haslett wrote:
How can you assert this in the face of JB's point?
---------------------------------------------------------
Ben Jonson asserted this, and sneered at Shakespeare's lack of classical learning both publicly and in private. English critics in the Augustan Age of Eighteenth century England much preferred Jonson to Shakespeare due to the former's evident classical learning, and largely despised the latter for his apparently formless, ill-informed plays.
---------------------------------------------------------
Somehow, Will Shaksper, "a socially inferior playwright and actor" got away with depicting the "often unattractive ancestors of the most powerful people of his day" -- or -- William Shakespeare got away with it because he... came from their ranks...!?

[I won't re-post JB's reply, to save space and prevent my own replies from being lost!]
---------------------------------------------------------
I thought the Oxfordian position was that Oxford was meant, in the plays, to be supporting a monarchical, hierarchical society - surely, if you acknowledge the reprehensible nature of many of the nobles in the plays, that undermines, or runs counter to, this position (if I've misunderstood this, I'm happy to be corrected).
---------------------------------------------------------JB wrote:

Since that is noted in the passage I quoted, I would certainly hope you “understand” it!
---------------------------------------------------------Sor ry, the point I was trying to make was that even if Bohemia had dominions that bordered the sea, this was only for about a decade in the 13th century. I don't think this is when the play was set, and it certainly wasn't when it was performed. How does it refute Jonson's criticism of Bohemia not having a coastline? Did De Vere deliberately put in a pointlessly learned reference in a convoluted desire to trip up the more educated members of his audience?

Why?
---------------------------------------------------------
Speaking of ancestors, it is interesting to note that one of De Vere's fought in the War of the Roses--on the losing side. He goes unmentioned in Shakespeare's "reporting" of the events.
---------------------------------------------------------Not so. John De Vere, 13th Earl of Oxford, makes a brief but significant appearance in Henry VI: Part Three when Warwick changes sides to support the Lancastrian cause. However, a more significant appearance is in Richard III, when he supports Henry Richmond.

Oxford (13th) was a fine military leader, and was probably the principle reason for Richmond's success. Oddly, Oxford (17th) makes nothing of this. Wouldn't it have been easy for him to have made Richmond, in his closing speech, give Oxford (13th) particular credit for his sterling service?

Given Elizabeth I's increasing age, lack of children, and refusal to confirm or even discuss the succession, wouldn't it have been a subtle way for Oxford (17th) to remind any future sovereign of the support his family had lent in installing the previous royal dynasty? The pedigree of the Oxford family would have proved tremendously beneficial to any new sovereign - wouldn't Oxford (17th)have taken the opportunity to point out to the various monarchical candidates how beneficial it would be to them to have his public support?
---------------------------------------------------------

Finally (pending responses!) the suggestion that De Vere use a pen-name Shakespeare that was misattributed to the wrong man opens up a whole can of worms.

The idea that De Vere couldn't let it be known that he was a playwright due to the disgrace it would bring, is nonsnense - he was openly acknowledged as a playwright in Francis Meres' Palladias Tamia, which also acknowledged Shakespeare, and it's obvious that the two are different people.

If it is the case that De Vere did adopt a pseudonym, why take such an unusual one? Why not "John Smith", or somesuch? What are the odds that there would be another William Shakespeare, or Shakspere, also writing at the same time? What are the odds that Shakspere would have a son called Hamnet?

How did Shakspere get hold of De Vere's plays in order to present them as his own, and why did the latter take no measures against him?

Why did Johson, who knew Shakspere, apparently entertain no doubts over his authorship, even if he occasionally made snide comments about his learning?

For what it's worth, I cheerfully accept that every line in a "Shakespeare" play wasn't by the Warwickshire lad! The Henry VI plays, and Richard III, are increasingly being credited as collaborations between Marlowe and Shakespeare, while the role played by Thomas Middleton is increasingly gathering scholarly interest.





Back to Top profile | search
 
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6103
Posted: 24 April 2019 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Steven: Ben Jonson asserted this, and sneered at Shakespeare's lack of
classical learning both publicly and in private. English critics in the
Augustan Age of Eighteenth century England much preferred Jonson to
Shakespeare due to the former's evident classical learning, and largely
despised the latter for his apparently formless, ill-informed plays.

**

Maybe he did, but not in the context set by JB's assertion.

"Sneering" at the work of others is trying to offend.

Why not present your point in the appropriate context? Plays are not even
remotely meant to be exact in their historical references.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132288
Posted: 24 April 2019 at 11:12am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

This is the same Ben Jonson who was Shakespeare’s BFF and loved him “this side idolatry”? Who sponsored the First Folio? Who was boozing with him in Stratford right before the “Bard” died?

Or so the Jonson-made legend has it.

Mind you, I’m sure it’s complete coincidence that the Myth of Shakespeare began serious construction after De Vere died—as I’m sure it’s just some kind of mix-up that the printer of the First Folio refers to the Author as if he’s dead, even tho the Stratford Man still had years to live.

Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132288
Posted: 24 April 2019 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

The idea that De Vere couldn't let it be known that he was a playwright due to the disgrace it would bring, is nonsnense - he was openly acknowledged as a playwright in Francis Meres' Palladias Tamia, which also acknowledged Shakespeare, and it's obvious that the two are different people.

•••

It was disgraceful for a Peer of the Realm to have works performed in a public theater. De Vere wrote for his peers, and toured his acting company around many country homes of the Lords and Ladies of the Court.

As to Mere, since De Vere was acknowledged in his lifetime as an excellent poet and “the best for comedy”, he could hardly be left out. And including Shakespeare? Would YOU have wanted to out Lord Burley’s son-in-law?

————————

If it is the case that De Vere did adopt a pseudonym, why take such an unusual one? Why not "John Smith", or somesuch? What are the odds that there would be another William Shakespeare, or Shakspere, also writing at the same time? What are the odds that Shakspere would have a son called Hamnet?

•••

Lot of assumptions there, starting with the notion that the Stratford Man was “writing at the same time”. The only “evidence” we have for him being an author comes by assuming he wrote the Works, but nothing in the actual record of his life supports this assumption.

As to De Vere taking the name, it may not have been his choice. As his plays and other works leaked out into the hands of the Public, an author was needed as a recognizable “brand”. Perhaps the Stratford Man was elected as a front. Or perhaps the name sprang from the De Vere coat of arms, whose crest is a lion brandishing (shaking?) a spear. And there was that famous toast to De Vere, “Thy countenance shakes a spear.”

And Hamnet. A stretch by any other name... If you want to play the name game consider that De Vere lost a lot of money dealing with a disreputable fellow named Locke, and that in those days “shy” included disreputable or shady in its definitions. Shy...Locke? Scholars have found the name nowhere outside THE MERCHANT OF VENICE.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 562
Posted: 24 April 2019 at 11:36am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

@Mark:
------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, I don't understand your point(s)?

Jonson, who prided himself on his classical education, publicly teased and privately scorned Shakespeare's lack thereof. Are you disputing either, or both, of these points?

English critics of the Augustan Age praised Jonson above Shakespeare due to their appreciation of the former's adherence to classical rules of drama, while dismissing the latter because he didn't. Do you disagree with either, or both, of these statements?

And of course, no, historical plays are not literally historical, but Shakespeare, or "Shakespeare", makes mistakes, such as confusing and conflating the two Edmund Mortimers, or misunderstanding the nature of noble titles, and several historical anachronisms, not to mention geographical errors, that are incongruous with noble birth or classical education.

JB wrote:

This is the same Ben Jonson who was Shakespeare’s BFF and loved him “this side idolatry”? Who sponsored the First Folio? Who was boozing with him in Stratford right before the “Bard” died? Or so the Jonson-made legend has it.
------------------------------------------------------------ -

Sorry, again, I'm not sure what your argument is? How does Jonson's closeness to Shakespeare prevent him from making an accurate assessment of him? His teasing of Shakespeare was publicly made in the First Folio, and his scorn was made in private conversation with Drummond, but both were pretty much the same in disparaging Shakespeare's learning (although the latter remarks were more contemptuous).
------------------------------------------------------------ -

Mind you, I’m sure it’s complete coincidence that the Myth of Shakespeare began serious construction after De Vere died.

------------------------------------------------------------
Meres exalted De Vere and Shakespeare in 1598 while both lived, and made it clear, or obviously believed, that they were two different people.

If it was necessary for De Vere to conceal his authorship to avoid Burghley's wrath - and it obviously wasn't, as Meres' public praise didn't, to my knowledge, have any repercussions for De Vere at all - then why was the Shakespeare "myth" maintained, never mind expanded upon, after both De Vere and Burghley were dead? Surely that would be the time to reveal the truth?

How did De Vere write plays before dying that would match the dramatic trends of the next decade? How did he foresee The Gunpowder Plot, which informs so much of Macbeth? How did Shakespeare obtain the plays that appeared after De Vere's death, so that he could present them and maintain the fiction that he wrote them?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 562
Posted: 24 April 2019 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

JB wrote (again, rats, just saw this after posting my reply to the previous posts!):

------------------------------------------------------------ -----
As to Mere, since De Vere was acknowledged in his lifetime as an excellent poet and “the best for comedy”, he could hardly be left out. And including Shakespeare? Would YOU have wanted to out Lord Burley’s son-in-law?
------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, again, not following. De Vere had been "outed" by Meres, quite publicly, and in no way suffered as a result (as far as I'm aware).

Shakespeare is acclaimed in the same book but is obviously a different person.

------------------------------------------------------------ --
but nothing in the actual record of his life supports this assumption.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Meres? Jonson's commendatory verse, and private, snide remarks? Sir George Buc, Master of the Revels, confirming Shakespeare as the author of King Lear in 1606-1607, not long after De Vere's death and long after Burley's, so that there would be no need to maintain a subterfuge? Heminges & Condell, who spent several years trying to find as many copies of the plays as possible to honour the memory of their dead friend? The Parnassus Plays? The effusive praise of Heywood and Webster?

------------------------------------------------------------

And Hamnet. A stretch by any other name
------------------------------------------------------------

De Vere chooses, or someone chooses on his behalf, the pseudonym William Shakespeare, and writes a play called Hamlet which, amongst other things, explores themes of loss and death.

There is a bloke called William Shakspere who has son called Hamnet - his only son out of three children, and in a society in which a son is so important - who dies.

What are the odds for that?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6103
Posted: 24 April 2019 at 11:50am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Steven: ...Are you disputing either, or both, of these points?

**

No, I'm disputing your inference that errors of the sort your describe must
indicate the author necessarily made the errors in ignorance instead of in
creative license.

Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 7 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login