Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 7 Next >>
Topic: Jack Kirby in question Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Eric White
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 901
Posted: 11 May 2019 at 7:57pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Is Ferran Delgado the person pushing this? He was going on about this awhile back. 

One thing I wanted to ask JB. Shooter claims it was his idea to make Phoenix a villain. I never heard that before. Is that true?
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 115429
Posted: 11 May 2019 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Nope. The idea was first floated to Chris and me by Steven Grant.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 115429
Posted: 11 May 2019 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I guess I made him upset. He wrote this to me:

“"Old notes"? Seriously, Nathan Greno? I have the complete PLOTS, no notes.”

So I guess he’ll be posting old Claremont plots that will reveal the original plan for all of this — including the original plan to kill Phoenix. I’m interested in seeing what he has... but I’m not sure how it will blow our minds. I guess we’ll see. Exciting times.

•••

Most mysterious. By this point Chris and I were doing “phone plots”. We’d discuss what was to be in the issue, and then I’d draw it. I’m not sure what these written “plots” might be.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric White
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 901
Posted: 11 May 2019 at 8:12pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

The creative process was: 
–Byrne and Claremont plotted it by phone, sometimes Byrne had more input, sometimes Claremont added more stuff. Only they know who had the ideas.
–Both took handwritten notes during/just after the phone call.
–Claremont developed and typed the plots from his notes, which doesn't mean that the ideas came from him. He often added extra input not talked with Byrne.
–Byrne might use Claremont's new input or not.
–Claremont would try to include his discarded input through the dialogue.
–Claremont would recycle his discarded ideas when Byrne left the title.

++++++++

I guess this guy was actually in the room with Claremont when you two were working on X-Men.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric White
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 901
Posted: 11 May 2019 at 8:14pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

So I guess he’ll be posting old Claremont plots that will reveal the original plan for all of this — including the original plan to kill Phoenix. I’m interested in seeing what he has... but I’m not sure how it will blow our minds. I guess we’ll see. Exciting times. 



Nathan, he already went through the whole explanation on the Terry Austin fan page if you're chomping at the bit to know the whole story. lol
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 115429
Posted: 11 May 2019 at 8:38pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

YES–Byrne and Claremont plotted it by phone, sometimes Byrne had more input, sometimes Claremont added more stuff. Only they know who had the ideas.

YES–Both took handwritten notes during/just after the phone call.

NO WRITTEN PLOTS WERE SENT TO ME–Claremont developed and typed the plots from his notes, which doesn't mean that the ideas came from him. He often added extra input not talked with Byrne.

DIDN’T SEE “NEW INPUT”–Byrne might use Claremont's new input or not.

CHRIS OFTEN WENT OFF ON WILD TANGENTS, BUT THESE WERE NOT “DISCARDED INPUT”–Claremont would try to include his discarded input through the dialogue.

STORY IDEAS AND BITS I DIDN’T WANT TO DO DID TURN UP LATER, BUT THEY WERE NOT “DISCARDED”–Claremont would recycle his discarded ideas when Byrne left the title.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric White
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 901
Posted: 11 May 2019 at 9:07pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Thanks for clarifying, JB.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11589
Posted: 11 May 2019 at 9:38pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

It would kind of defeat the point of the Marvel method to have the scripter and artist run through the plot verbally and then have the scripter write up copious pages of detailed page-by-page plot. That ain't the Marvel method.

Did Marvel ever operate in those days via a process of typed plots being submitted to editorial for approval? 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steven Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5244
Posted: 11 May 2019 at 11:22pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Chris said (during a convention panel) that when doing the Wolverine series with Frank Miller that by the last issue he discussed the plot with Frank over the phone, then wrote a plot that was about a page long to send to the editor.

(This is just to confirm such a thing might be done--don't know if it was done with X-Men.)
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14847
Posted: 12 May 2019 at 2:03am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

So what is the point of the guy Nathan is posting about? Is he trying to present himself as some great investigative journalist who has some shocking expose? Does he want us to believe there was some great coverup concerning the origins of the Dark Phoenix Saga?

Yeesh... how pathetic, if so.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 115429
Posted: 12 May 2019 at 7:52am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

It would kind of defeat the point of the Marvel method to have the scripter and artist run through the plot verbally and then have the scripter write up copious pages of detailed page-by-page plot. That ain't the Marvel method.

••

Well........

"Copious pages" is the very definition of a Claremont plot. In the days of IRON FIST and early X-MEN, he would often send a 14 or 15 page plot for a 17 page story! Eventually, I learned that he was selling copies of his plots at conventions, so he was formatting them like short stories, written to be read, not simply to inform the artist.

(This was what led to my habit of reading the plot once and tossing it away. I drew what I remembered, since I knew that would be what was really important. Seemed to work!)

Back to Top profile | search
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11589
Posted: 12 May 2019 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Interesting! Thanks for the clarification and extra info. Always fascinating to hear the little details of what went on behind the scenes.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Nathan Greno
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8831
Posted: 12 May 2019 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Here’s the latest “reveal” — 


Since on Sunday there's no much audience here, I'll return to the LOST ARTICLE by Byrne intended to be published inside of the lettercol of #137. Both excerpts will answer some doubts posted here.

The first excerpt follows what I already posted. Byrne assumes the blame to get rid of the character, which is not new, but the main difference is that this time he was going to do it in front of the readers of the book when the subject was hot, instead of doing it for a magazine with a 10-15k print run.

The second excerpt is the last one of the article which shows that he wrote it for the original ending, and teases with Sentinels.

Just an additional note: This article was retyped by Chris Claremont to add an introduction. At the end, Claremont added a small text after the ending was changed to introduce the album issue, since he mentions the "Elegy" title.

If you reread the 'Art of JB' you'll find out that Claremont and Byrne had plans for the sentinels way before of 'Days of Future Days' but with a different approach, man-sized. This is what Byrne is teasing, not Days of Future Past, which was conceived in 1979 during the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga as one of the first graphic novels. But I'll cover that in a few days.

In the excerpts of TCJ #57 (1980) and 76 (1982) Byrne clearly talks about working from PLOTS.

About the death of Phoenix perfectly described in the original plots of the Saga, I posted a clue in the last image, from the UPC code of the cover of #136. An advance: When Salicrup came aboard, he approved the split of #135 in TWO comics, so this fact delayed the death of Phoenix to #136. 

And now, focus on what the cover of #136 REALLY shows: The DEATH of Phoenix. Can't you see the horror and grief in the faces of the characters? That's because "she's dead, Jim".




Back to Top profile | search
 
Nathan Greno
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8831
Posted: 12 May 2019 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply



Back to Top profile | search
 
Nathan Greno
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8831
Posted: 12 May 2019 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 115429
Posted: 12 May 2019 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Well, of course I worked from “plots”. I wasn’t making it up as I went along! As already noted, the plots were the notes I took when talking the issues over with Chris.

And Boy Sherlock wants to use a literal interpretation of a symbolic cover and a JOKE to prove his point? Oy!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14847
Posted: 12 May 2019 at 7:38pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Whew! That fella can rest easy knowing he cracked this case, and revealed the grand conspiracy concocted by the devious JB! You can't pull the wool over our eyes, anymore, JB... this guy's got yer number! (sarcarsm)

Sheesh! 
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 1397
Posted: 12 May 2019 at 9:00pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

I think the only thing new to me here is (and I had/have Comics Journal #57, Art Of, and Chronicles I & II)... nothing.

The aspargus people died, JB drew them to make her trial make more sense = Phoenix must die!!! Even when I thought it was all Shooter's fault I still agreed with it. It was well done, logical, can't complain when something works. After that I disliked everything except... it seemed a basically good thing to rescue Jean Grey from the whole mess in that Avengers/FF story (and then soon after that I basically buggered off as a reader/buyer).

Well there's the one small thing I never liked; the gun on the moon that offed Phoenix/whoevertheheckthatwas??? Just some smallish pop-up gun and wham, scorched earth, it's over? I kind of would've liked a better than the Ambrose Bierce blow to the head from behind end; the gun didn't look all that formidable or worthy. Given more time maybe I'd have liked entire planets slammed into her over three pages and gore splashed on Cyclops, but I was fine with it at the time and still now. It made sense, it felt right, the various risings from the ashes for the entity left much to be desired though. Very underwhelmed by Madelyn and Rachel etc., and it seemed daft to bring Jean Grey back into it permanently, after having gone to all the trouble to extricate her as separate. Sigh.

edited for typos as had to send quick to catch Supergirl.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 12 May 2019 at 10:27pm
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11589
Posted: 12 May 2019 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

She fell on her sword. No need for planetocide.

This 'blowing our minds' case reminds me of a line from Bull Durham: "How come in former lifetimes, everbody's always somebody famous?"

Why is it the most famous comics story happens to have some secret revelations?


Edited by Peter Martin on 12 May 2019 at 9:31pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 26149
Posted: 13 May 2019 at 5:20am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

That guy’s trying too hard. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 115429
Posted: 13 May 2019 at 7:01am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

...it seemed daft to bring Jean Grey back into it permanently, after having gone to all the trouble to extricate her as separate

•••

Your memory is failing you. Bringing back Jean Grey introduced the idea that she and Phoenix were separate entities.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10416
Posted: 13 May 2019 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Tangent: imagine if John Byrne had left the X-MEN at issue #124, the final issue before "the dramatic return of Phoenix" in #125. How much of the entire world of Marvel would have been utterly other! I often think that what preceded the justly famous Phoenix saga is unjustly not celebrated. Some great stuff there, but nothing to obsess about (for decades!), I suppose.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 3493
Posted: 13 May 2019 at 7:36am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Obsession and cliche comic book fans go together like peanut butter and jelly. I like well done comics and I will admit nostalgia seems to keep my preference on books from the 60's through 80's. But I have never been so obsessed as to look for and convince myself that I have found a 40 year old, deep state like coverup in comic books. I suppose if you are determined to find dirt on any subject you will find it.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 115429
Posted: 13 May 2019 at 7:37am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Imagine if Chris had left! Altho, perhaps best not to. Looking at my first few months on FF one can easily see that my writing “style” was heavily influenced by CC. Had I begun writing the X-Men’s adventures, it might well have read as parody.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Casey Sager
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 603
Posted: 13 May 2019 at 9:29am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

My issue with the guy on FB is his presentation. If he had come along and said he had some interesting stuff to show from a historical perspective that would be one thing.

His entire presentation is to prove that JB has been lying for 30+ years as some sort of "gotcha" moment and I find all the attention he's getting really obnoxious.

Personally, I'm always going to go with the person who actually participated in the events as they happened as opposed to some dude halfway across the globe who wasn't directly involved in the original process.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 

<< Prev Page of 7 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login