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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 May 2019 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I sure hope the Dems realize if they try it and DON’T bring Trump down they will turn him into Godzilla.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 May 2019 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

If there are impeachment proceedings, Trump will never be able to bear it
with dignified aloofness like some Clinton-esque teflon politico. Trump will
gnash his teeth and self-imolate.

When news covers Trump's actual misdeeds and connections to Russia, his
numbers go down. When he gets caught in an actual battle, like he did over
child separation, his numbers tank.

He only succeeds when he can take credit for some perceived boon like the
economy. An Impeachment inquiry will bring all his dirty work into the open
and allow the nation to see what an infantile criminal he has been his entire
life.

I don't see how he could go through impeachment in the House without
permanently losing all the independent votes. No partisan acquittal in the
Senate will restore him to the glory he'll need to defeat a decent opponent
in 2020 (though it isn't certain he'll meet a decent opponent there).

Edited by Mark Haslett on 21 May 2019 at 6:13pm
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 21 May 2019 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I know there is more pressure on Pelosi to start proceedings in the House just to possibly end the stonewalling for information from the WH. But knowing the Senate will ensure the impeachment ends without harm to the President, why do it? I hope the proceedings uncover enough to make him unelectable, because a miscalculation could empower and embolden this idiot and end democracy.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 May 2019 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

When the House opened impeachment proceedings against Nixon, the Senate
was not going to convict.

Clinton's impeachment did nothing to harm the Republicans.

What is this phantom fear about the cost of not getting a Senate conviction?

It is a constitutional duty for Congress to impeach a criminal President.
"Impeachment at the Voting Booth" is not a real thing.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 May 2019 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

If the horse was on the other shoe, the Republicans would impeach the hell out
of a Democratic Trump - even if the Democrats controlled the Senate.

And they'd be right to do it.
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 21 May 2019 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

The differences between the Nixon and Clinton proceedings and the current President are so huge that there really isn't a comparison, but just consider consequences of each situation. The stakes are astronomically different between spying on a rival political party, Oval Office oral and the end of US democracy. Pardon my hyperbole, but I don't think I'm too far off.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 21 May 2019 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

The Republican Senate will not do anything against a sitting Republican president. Any attempt at impeachment will fail. Trump will be assured of his eventual victory at the outset and endlessly rail against these "false charges," certain all the while that his office is secure. The Democrats will fail, and that will become the narrative; that they could prove nothing and that the President is a shining example of rectitude and elected power. Charges, large and small, will begin to rain down upon the House and everyone who was instrumental in the impeachment proceedings or even slightly vulnerable will be attacked. The House will be shunned by the Senate and nothing it proposes will be voted upon. 

Trump was able to withstand the bad "optics" of the Mueller Report by putting a puppet in charge of Mueller, one who would, at Trump's behest, obfuscate and hide anything truly damaging. Mueller is still a low-level employee by Trump's standards and Trump knows that employees can do little if you control their bosses. He knew he would win and so was able to ride out the scandal. His victory in an impeachment hearing is even more certain. There is absolutely no question whatsoever that he would prevail. The Republicans are absolutely without morality or concern for this country. They will back their team at all costs, to hell with all other considerations. Trump is their man. They will carry him through anything that occurs.

It would be suicidal for the Democrats to think they can touch the President given the current political makeup of the Senate. Of course, going down in flames is a proud Democrat tradition, but I would hope they'd think better of doing so this time.

They need to focus on party unity, selecting a winnable candidate, and gaining control of the Senate while holding onto the House. Only when they can actually win a vote in both houses of Congress will it be possible to take effective action against this corrupt regime. I doubt very much if the Democrats will ever be organized enough to do so. 

Even if they could, the billionaire owned and controlled media will do nothing but paint their efforts as partisan retaliation, day in, day out, for however long it lasts. Every Congressional news story, without fail, will begin and end with some Right-Wing jabbermouth talking about how the Dems came gunning for the Administration and Congress and how they're all a buncha' cheap thugs, mowing down the good men and women of this proud country for their own petty, vindictive purposes, failing to serve the American people, and doing nothing to conduct the business of this nation.

That would be the best case I could possibly imagine. The worst would be a failed impeachment that empowers the President to run further amok and begin a war in Congress.

More likely: the Dems keep their impeachment heat in their pants, put up a bunch of ding-dong, unicorn-and-rainbow candidates Dem voters line up and choose sides over; everyone fails to get behind one candidate, they lose the election, and sputter uselessly for another twelve to sixteen years of Republican triumph. I see Trump stepping down in victory, showered with glory, and backing Pence as the new leader of God's Country, U.S.A. as people look back on the very concept of social progress as a nostalgic, outdated notion that just... tch, didn't get any traction. Weird anti-Jesus Hippie stuff. Whatever. 

Schoolchildren will continue to die en masse. Open gunfire will become a more common occurrence, and the Republican response will be to finally arrest one of these clowns (all it will take is one) and make a very public showing of giving him the death penalty. There!! Problem solved!! We're Tough On Crime!! As the shootings continue, everyone will simply say, "Well, the coward shot himself agin'. Afraid of Republican Justice! Them Republican's shore have got a lock on whut makes this ol' country tick!" Schools will become Houses of the Lord where prayer is actively encouraged and those who do not wish to participate may simply elect to get the shit kicked out of them after class. Women's right to choose will survive in maybe 15 to 20 states and those wishing to end their pregnancies will have to go there. And never come back, lest they be hanged for murder. "Bounties" will become a cool, under-the-radar thing for families who want to drag lil' Bess back home to face Jesus for whut she done did t' that lil' soul growin' inside her. Population numbers will skyrocket in poor states, getting more and more destitute over time, and most of those kids will become ignorant, badly educated losers who vote and think the Era of American Greatness began with that great businessman and controversial visionary, Trump. 

Reagan will be seen as  a sort of John the Baptist to Trump's Christ. 

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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 May 2019 at 8:52pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Brian: Even if they could, the billionaire owned and controlled media will do
nothing but paint their efforts as partisan retaliation, day in, day out, for
however long it lasts.

**

Only Fox and Sinclair do that now. Why would all the others join in if
impeachment begins?
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 21 May 2019 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Even the others feel a deep need to air "both sides" of any given situation, even if the two are entirely unequal or there are, in fact, dozens of sides to a particular issue. Two will do. One of those two in the scenario I presented would always be the Right-Wing jabbermouth decrying the Democrat Abuse of Power and Cheapshot, Take-Down Mentality of the Dems for, you know, upholding the law and making this administration accountable for its behavior. 

Also, that scenario did not hinge upon Impeachment. It depended upon the Dems gaining both houses of Congress and then taking steps to investigate Trump's criminality. The odds that would occur while Trump was still in office, and thus impeachable, are not good.


Edited by Brian Hague on 21 May 2019 at 9:00pm
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 May 2019 at 9:05pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Eric: The differences between the Nixon and Clinton proceedings and the
current President are so huge that there really isn't a comparison, but just
consider consequences of each situation. The stakes are astronomically
different between spying on a rival political party, Oval Office oral and the
end of US democracy. Pardon my hyperbole, but I don't think I'm too far off.

**
I don't see much hyperbole, but I don't understand how this is an argument
not to impeach.

The fear of impeachment seems to be that it will somehow lead to people
who don't currently support Trump into supporting him.

I confess that I don't yet understand how, even theoretically, that might
work?

Edited by Mark Haslett on 21 May 2019 at 9:51pm
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 21 May 2019 at 9:23pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I sure hope the Dems realize if they try it and DON’T bring Trump down they will turn him into Godzilla.

*******

That’s gotta be the thing that’s keeping impeachment at bay right now. 
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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 3:12am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Impeachment as a power of Congress was SEVERELY damaged and undermined by the Republicans in Congress in modern times when they chose (out of spite!!) to impeach President Clinton for perjury in the Lewinsky affair - knowing his offense(s) did NOT rise to the level of "high crimes and misdemeanors" as intended by the founders and knowing that the American people did NOT support such an action and knowing that the Senate would NEVER sustain such a charge with a conviction (in fact every Senate vote on each Article of Impeachment against Clinton not only failed to gain the constitutionally requisite 2/3 majority, they all failed to gain even a SIMPLE majority) --- but worst of all when Clinton would go on to survive and arguably thrive for the remainder of this second term.  For awhile there, until the METOO movement Bill Clinton was a pretty big deal of a very popular, successful, former President - at least in Democratic Party circles.

In fact throughout the history of the Republic, this great power of IMPEACHMENT, which is supposed to loom like a Sword of Damocles over the political heads of President's has a very anemic history: Andrew Johnson was impeached and ACQUITTED - Nixon was threatened with impeachment but instead got a blanket pardon and went on to be an elder statesman, and Clinton was impeached and ACQUITTED.  

Unfortunately, Trump has VERY little to fear from impeachment and likely knows it!

Marc
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 3:53am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Mark Haslett, the proceedings would need to uncover enough information to make a re-election impossible. I didn't bring that point into my second post. The hazard with impeachment proceedings is shooting and missing. Since I don't see much killer instinct on display with empty chair hearings I am very skeptical. When ignored subpoenas result in arrests, people being dragged before congress and forced to testify I might get hopeful.
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Peter Hicks
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 7:46am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

The older Democrat leaders are understandably afraid that impeachment proceedings will repeat the chain of events seen with Clinton:
- the House votes for impeachment against a President from the opposing party
- the impeachment motion dies in the Senate, which has a majority from the same party as the President
- voters in the next election are sympathetic to the President and his party, feeling the impeachment was really about politics rather than criminal acts, and vote them back to power

I am not saying it's right. But Pelosi and other veterans think it is better to just let the stink of Trump's misdeeds fill the public's mind, and let them vote accordingly in 2020.
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 8:01am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

The Clinton impeachment proceedings WERE about politics. The current proceedings would be about criminal acts, but his ability to throw other people under the bus and avoid harm can't be underestimated. Don't shoot and miss.
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 8:27am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

The Republicans are too spineless to vote to get rid of him, anyway. Besides, we'll end up with Pence the Jesus Freak taking over, and they'll have to either rein him in or get rid of him once he starts trying to do a lot of garbage that violates separation of Church & State. 

(Same reason he won't last long if he ever gets the chance to run and people are stupid enough to elect him.)




Edited by Brian Floyd on 22 May 2019 at 8:30am
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 8:35am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

I believe that impeachment would fail. Why?

ITEM: I think that while the Republicans control the Senate, the Democrats will never get the votes to convict in the end. Simple math will defeat this process.

ITEM: We're talking about a team who cheated, lied, and obstructed justice to get the man elected. Why assume they would make any less of an effort to save his ass against impeachment? We haven't heard of any political assassinations yet, but it's what Putin would do... his puppet would likely play that card if there were a TRUE threat.

ITEM: Mitch McConnell is wily old bastard, and I'm certain that he has his own bag of tricks to bring into play... and he's not nearly as stupid as Trump.

In my opinion, you'd have a better chance getting him out of office with a team of sharpshooters - another unimaginable and abominable consideration.

I believe the best solution is the 25th amendment. Trump is an old man, the oldest we've ever had as president. He has MADE his mistakes and they've appeared on the broadcast media. They can't be defended or spin-doctored with near the ease of impeachment charges. There could be excuses for "falling in love" with a foreign dictator (Dog alone knows them...). What alternate excuses to senility could there be for not being able to say "origins", or to regular misspellings in tweets? In such insular behavior as has been described in his seclusion every morning for hours while he tweets and watches "Fox and Friends"?

Best of all - and maybe even truthfully - this can be intended as concern for Trump. We can't let the President subject himself to such humiliation, nor can we risk him doing something accidental to himself, or the United States. Let's just subject him to some basic intelligence and behavioral observation and tests. No one wants a sick man to suffer.

I think that's got a better shot than impeachment. Shucks, if Trump is getting tired of this conflict, even HE might take that way out. There's no shame in being old... we're all trying to achieve that!
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David Miller
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

An impeachment trial would put Trump in his element as ringmaster and game show host. I thought he came across as a complete idiot asshole on The Apprentice, yet it helped elect him president, so christ only knows how clowshoeing through impeachment could burnish his reputation. 

I think the solution is for the House to hold granual impeachment hearings until sometime around next October, and postpone any vote until after the election. 

That way the Trump Administration gets fairly aired (running up new and exciting obstruction charges in the process, not to mention even more breathtaking graft and corruption than the tip of the iceberg we've seen), but we're spared a circus in the Senate (although I think McConnell would attempt to assert himself as alpha primate by declining to dignify the House shenanigans by even bringing them to the Senate.)


Edited by David Miller on 22 May 2019 at 11:07am
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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Unfortunately, I doubt he gets impeached.  He SHOULD be impeach though.  Right now, I suspect the Dems are wanting to focus more on the 2020 election as it's about 18 months away.  This election is quite possibly the biggest and most important Presidential election in US history.

Regardless of impeachment or not, it's far more important that he or one of his cronies do not re-take the White House.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Nothing says “I am not a crook” like saying “These investigations must stop if you want to get anything done.” What a fucking turd this asshole continues to be.



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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Pelosi is aware that the Senate will not impeach right now so she wants clean investigations with any sort of actual findings based on evidence and facts so thick, that if the Senate tries NOT to convict, they look like they are corrupt themselves... that kind of exposure could likely be the death knell of the GOP.

-C!



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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

The president refuses to do his job because the opposition party is being like really really mean to him? New tern: Banana Republican. :^(
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 22 May 2019 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Impeachment is not off the table nor should Dems rush to it with the spineless GOP in control of the Senate. Investigations should keep this clown busy and distracted during his last 16 months in office. This is a nation of laws and Trump will learn soon enough that he nor any of his minions are not above it.

November 3, 2020 cannot come any sooner.

Fun Fact: Bill Clinton's approval rating was in the 60s on the day of his impeachment hearing. Trump hasn't even cracked 50% on his "best" day.

-C!

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Robert Cosgrove
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

It's interesting that the political views of JBF members, at least those bothering to comment, tend to uniform opposition to Trump, with division of opinion being limited to those who favor impeachment, and those who oppose it merely for prudential reasons, i.e., the belief that it will not result in a conviction in the Senate and may well strengthen Trump's hand.  Why the JBF opinion is relatively monolithic in a country where opinion is divided is, as I say, interesting.

This morning I looked at a poll commissioned by CNN, released yesterday.  As of March 14-17, 36% believed Trump should be impeached and removed from office, 59% were opposed, 5% had no opinion.  Last September, 47% favored impeachment and removal, 48% were opposed.  So there has been an 11% shift in the direction of opposing impeachment.

Surprising to me were references to some earlier impeachment polls.  In July, 2014, 33% favored impeaching Barack Obama, and in August, 2006, 30% favored impeaching George W. Bush.    The worst legacy of Watergate appears to be the devaluation of impeachment as an extraordinary remedy to a garden variety political tool to be wielded against one's opponents.  It shocks me that almost a third of the country can be mustered to express a view in favor of impeachment of any given president.

My own opinion is that the Democrats' best hope for defeating Trump is a timely recession.  Given that the economy has now been expanding for essentially ten straight years, albeit more robustly for the last two and one half, we are probably overdue for one, so the Democrats may have a good shot.  Having been told for two years by the media, the Democrats, and a substantial minority of Republicans that Mueller is a prosecutor of great skill and integrity and that we should wait for the results of his investigation, its not surprising that the American people have concluded that if he found no conspiracy by Trump with Russia to affect the election that probably there was none to find.  I don't think an impeachment vote will be well-received by the American people, and will likely result in the House swinging back to Republican control.  But of course, everyone has an opinion.  There's one way to find out.
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Peter Hicks
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 8:03am | IP Logged | 25 post reply



"It's interesting that the political views of JBF members, at least those bothering to comment, tend to uniform opposition to Trump...."
************************************
This forum too is an echo chamber, and not a random slice of the population. I am a Christian for example, but I have given up on commenting in any of the recurring threads on here about religion.
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