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Topic: Is there any place for death in comic books? Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 21 June 2019 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Claremont, as has been noted, struggles to let anything go. Can we really blame him for not letting go of such a pivotal story? Furthermore, would it really make sense for the X-Men to just forget about Jean and never mention her? (Not saying he didn't go too far at times, such as with the Madelyn Pryor thing).

I used to watch the Adam West Batman series when I was a child and never had a clue that he became Batman because of the murder of his parents. And that means a massive part of the character was missing.

Keeping alive the memory of a dead character can be essential -- for example, Bucky's death informed a lot of what constituted Captain America's characterisation in those early Avengers comics.

Now, Bucky did get brought back, but I hardly think there was nothing left to do except bring him back, nor with Jean Grey. Jean came back because Kurt Busiek proposed an ingenious solution that proved irresistible.

That unsolicited solution came first (cause) and then the decision to bring her back came second (effect). Claremont's constant harking back to the character did not, I think, cause her return.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 21 June 2019 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Outside of "origin" deaths (which includes Bucky's death, since it provided the tragic backstory for the Man Out of Time version of Captain America in the 1960s), I'm hard-pressed to recall many deaths in the classic Marvel era of the early-to-mid 60s.

There were occasional deaths (Frederick Foswell, Franklin Storm, etc.), but those were few and far between. There's not a single death in Lee and Kirby's Galactus Trilogy, after all. Nor in Lee and Ditko's Master Planner storyline. Most of the undisputed classics of that era put the characters through their paces without wanton death and carnage.

It wasn't until the late 60s and early 70s that we started seeing the genre "mature" and the body-count rise, for good AND ill. Norman Osborn and Gwen Stacy's deaths worked well in the moment, but people couldn't let them go. Jean's death worked in the moment, but people couldn't let her go.

It comes down to whether the deaths serve a purpose and what happens after. Resurrections can cheapen classic stories, and killing characters for shock value or because they're perceived to be past their prime (Barry Allen) can cause all sorts of trouble.
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 21 June 2019 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Death is one thing. Death for the sake of shock value is another. Especially since it no longer has any shock value. I think even newer readers understand that superhero comics characters are rarely ever really truly sincerely dead.

Gerry Conway opened up a can of worms when he killed off Gwen Stacy. I don't blame him for it. I'm sure he was trying to tell a dramatic, moving story. But it was bad for Spider-Man stories in the long run -- it's very much a "dividing line" in his life. And it set a bad precedent. 
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 21 June 2019 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Even in Western comics, there wasn't much killing.  As I recall, the comics code put a stop to it, and books from the 60s through the 80s pretty much followed that. There were the rare exceptions - Dark Phoenix, Elektra, probably one or two others. But not often.
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Is the original premise of this thread killing in general or killing by or of heroes only?

I remember reading a lot of Joker stories (especially in his own short-lived series in the 70's) where the Joker killed a LOT!  He was always killing a henchman or two and my 9-12 year-old mind always wondered "Why would anybody work for the Joker?!?  He could kill you at any second!"

Yes, death was not wholesale back then, but I came on board right after the death of Gwen Stacy (and there was a LOT of referencing that) and in the reprints I read the death of Capt. Stacy--these were powerful stories/events for my young mind.  Even with SUPERMAN, there were a lot of stories where death was an issue--imaginary stories where important characters were shown to die, but also something like Superman thinking he killed somebody, driving him almost to a nervous breakdown.  I seem to recall Batman often standing over a dead body, discussing things with Commissioner Gordon.

On-panel death was somewhat rare, but it happened.  Death was always possible.  Perhaps it was that mixture of rarity and possibility that made Dark Phoenix killing the D'Bari and Bullseye stabbing Elektra so powerful and effective.

Now, every hero has been killed and brought back at least once.  No one cares because, if you've been reading for more than a minute, you know that all these deaths are temporary.  Death was more effective when it was more rare.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 21 June 2019 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Yeah, how about those characters you wished had stayed dead? I think after what he did, Mastermind should've been at least drooling at a laughing academy somewhere still! He came back way way too quickly as did The White Queen.

Bullseye really set off the craze for psychopath nutbar killers in super people comics. That was well done, but variation no. 119 by someone else with more leering and more horrific crimes allowing the former heroes to go that much further in the extreme... bleh. I'd rather re-read Daredevil #169 for the eight or ninth time than anything with those mutated Joker type characters with massive evil grins and all that junk. That Peter David character Buzz that was a sort pf Kurt Cobain from a British Hammer film in the revived Supergirl made that series a bore. Just plain crazy characters seemed to start popping up in the wake of Bullseye too; Ambush Bug, The Badger, Lobo... someone must find crazy entertaining. Body counts, crazies, people gone 'dark' and wicked... smells like teen stagnation.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 21 June 2019 at 7:21pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

It's weak, unimaginative, and cowardly to kill your opponents, especially when a plethora of other options exist. It is, unfortunately, also incredibly popular and, in real life, very effective. Real people don't do that Joker-thing where their motorboat explodes while they cackle on in mid-sentence and then show up a few months later, hale and hearty, with a brand new, underground lair brimming with death traps to try out.
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I have to say that I found myself a bit creeped out by all of the fan Podcasts and discussion prior to the release of AVENGERS: ENDGAME, where everyone was talking about who would KILL Thanos. Not defeat. Not capture. Not imprison. KILL.

Starlin's INFINITY GAUNTLET did not end with Thanos' execution. A somewhat dark moment in that series was when Wolverine and the Hulk were urged to "sanction" Thanos, should the moment present itself, with the implication being that they were referring to murder.

But the story did not end with Thanos' death, despite his crimes. The movie, on the other hand--SPOILER ALERT--killed him twice. And all of his cronies once. It was a bit unsettling to watch that sort of "eye for an eye" murder presented in such a large scale, and as the climactic, uber-heroic moment of the film.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 21 June 2019 at 7:27pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Gerry Conway opened up a can of worms when he killed off Gwen Stacy. I don't blame him for it. I'm sure he was trying to tell a dramatic, moving story. But it was bad for Spider-Man stories in the long run -- it's very much a "dividing line" in his life. And it set a bad precedent.
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Conway's original Clone Saga should have been the last word on the subject. Peter realizes that he's moved past Gwen's death, makes peace with her clone (who leaves forever), with Mary Jane becoming his new on-again/off-again love interest.

Killing Gwen rather than just sending her away served two purposes: It gave ASM that shock-value shot in the arm, and, more importantly, it permanently took Gwen off the table. Peter and Gwen had already been through any number of ups and downs, and marriage seemed inevitable. Knowing that would be a Bad Thing, Conway removed any chance of it happening. If Gwen had lived (but had broken up with Peter), then there would always be a chance of bringing her back into the picture.

I don't blame Conway or the story (which is still a favorite) for what happened afterward, though.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 21 June 2019 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Now, every hero has been killed and brought back at least once. No one cares because, if you've been reading for more than a minute, you know that all these deaths are temporary. Death was more effective when it was more rare.
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Yep. It should be a trump card which is used sparingly, and for darn good reasons. It needs narrative meaning, and has to serve a purpose.


JB and Roger Stern's idea of bringing Bucky back as a cripple in a VA hospital would surely have been an all-time great story, but they knew even then that someone would come along later and screw it up.

Flash-forward 20-odd years, and Bucky was revived as a cybernetic assassin who then went on to become Captain America. No, thanks.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 June 2019 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Peter had lost girlfriends before, but they’d “gone away”. Going away is a vague, fuzzy thing. But death has a Before and After.

Plus, we’d begun to cross over into the realms wherein anal fans exerted more and more control, so Gwen’s death could not simply fade away. Like Phoenix, later, it had to be constantly referenced.

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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 21 June 2019 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

In the Spanish/Mexican Spider-Man comics Gwen didn't die and he married her...


Story: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/mar/05/el-hombre-aran a-why-mexico-created-an-alternate-spider-man-in-the-70s


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 21 June 2019 at 7:37pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 21 June 2019 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

How many forum members do not think FF#285 is a classic? Try and do that story without death.

How many forum member do not think FF nos. 242 - 244 are classics? Try to do that arc without any risk of Galactus dying (and by saying death should not be in comics, you rob the drama of a true risk of dying).

Death is a part of life; death is the one fate we all must face. Comics should be all ages -- and this brings us back to Brian's insightful comments about the importance of how death should be handled -- but to strip death from comics would be to condemn comics to a ridiculously narrow strata of readership. Even young children understand death as a general concept. Yes, we need to think twice about how we present it, to ensure it isn't too harrowing for a young readership (cf. Mufasa in the Lion King, though), but to say Stan and co. never went there is simply not true.

Go back to Avengers #9:

"Wonder Man -- you sacrificed yourself to save us! Why?"

"Perhaps -- every man -- dreams of doing one noble thing -- in his life! Now I can die -- knowing that I didn't live -- in vain!"
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 21 June 2019 at 8:52pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

but to say Stan and co. never went there is simply not true.

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I don’t think anyone said that. My own point was that death should be used sparingly and used well. Stan and his collaborators used death only every once in a while, and it therefore had more impact and more meaning. 

But they didn’t keep playing the death card in order to up the stakes or generate dramatic tension. The classic Galactus Trilogy has HUGE stakes, but not a single death. Lee and Kirby didn’t need to show how powerful or how dangerous Galactus was by having him blast half of New York to atoms.  
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