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And there is the problem: the hindsight. The decision to kill Jean was made at the time, with no knowledge of how it would resonate, of how popular it would be with readers, of the cultural landmark it was in and of itself.

You blame Claremont for constantly referencing back to it, for overdoing it. Perhaps fair criticism.

But whether he referenced back to it or not, it was still massive. It would inevitably impact on the book forever more. One of the founding members was gone. The love of of the leader of the team was gone.

And you cannot blame Claremont for that.

Shooter wanted her tortured for all eternity.

JB said 'Fuck that, I'd rather kill her.'

And she died. That was the way it happened.  For me, given the Hobson's Choice on the table, this was the preferable option.

To go with your hindsight decision making that she shouldn't have died, then the only option reportedly available was she ends up tortured for all eternity. Lovely lesson for the kids. Death shouldn't be in the comics, but literally infinite pain inflicted on a young heroine is just fine and dandy.

That Mxyzptlk descendant who joined the Adult Legion was, believe it or not, the brother of Mask Man, the one who killed and revived the Legion, ala' Korvac and the Avengers. He said so in the story. And Levitz made it one of the vision's Ferro Lad's brother was suffering from, yes, but he was said to be able to see into different timelines, so the Adult Legion story was not a "dream reality." It was merely one possible future the Legion had in store. 

"As for children and death... I shrug."

There's a line you don't want quoted out of context. 

The "hindsight" I mentioned is only about assessing Mr. Claremont's subsequent continual post mortem referrals to Jean Grey. It is not to the initial psylla and charybdis decision to have her perish, which I understand was intended to be permanent. 

If Jean Grey's death had been left alone, it would have retained in comicbook history all its grace, elegance, and poignancy. Alas, that was not to be. I'm not against death depicted in comicbooks because kids can't handle it. I'm against death in comicbooks because some of the adults running the store can't...!

The alternate futures that Andrew Nolan saw were certainly dream-like, but you're right that he was seeing into different timelines. Bad on my phrasing again.

I did forget that Mask Man and 31st century Mr. Mxyzptlk were brothers. Time to re-read my collection of LSH archives!

Regarding Dark Phoenix... eternal torture is unquestionably a worse fate than death. And it raised another question. The Shi'ar and Lilandra were TERRIFIED of the Phoenix. The look on Lilandra's face when she invokes Plan Omega - "Burn this world, this system, this stellar cluster! - whatever is necessary to make sure that Phoenix is destroyed!" is a brilliant piece of art, showing a lot of emotions.

Plan Omega... this reinforces that the Shi'ar intended to destroy the Phoenix. None of this "leave her alive but eternal torture" crap. Leaving Phoenix alive implied that she could escape. I would think that would have occurred to Shooter, but who knows what the power of being E-i-C brings one?

Power... I understand that the Shi'ar empire was far superior to anything Earth had to bear. If they had ever decided that they wanted to take over Earth*, it would likely have happened quickly, and what could Earth's super heroes do about it?**

*"Operation: Galactic Storm" notwithstanding. Dreck is dreck.

**Although, of course, the FF, X-Men, Avengers, and Defenders would win because they always win.

But if the power of the Shi'ar was so great that they could conceive destroying Phoenix, what kind of villain would she have made for the X-Men? Perhaps Mr. Byrne recalls any of those plans, but it seems as if she so out-powered the X-Men that they couldn't stand a chance. Her death might have been necessary, because I have trouble seeing what kind of threat Wolverine would be to an entity that consumes stars...

And I really ought to have put a smiley emoticon at the end of that observation about the "death and children" line. Looking at it today in the cold light of morning, it sounds a little brusque. Sorry. 

So, instead... Death. Bummer, right? :-)

Anybody else here ever get a comic book crush on Hela? I know I sure did... Think there might be an Asgardian Thanos-type out there somewhere, offering up villages of the slain as gifts for his adored one and pulling off everyone's fingernails so she can build her boat?

A tangent about Phoenix... the emotional impact of that story was exactly that founding member Jean Grey, established lover of Scott Summers and beloved friend of the other X-Men, was killed. That took thirty-odd issues of the new X-Men, notwithstanding the "original" series. And the studio wanted to try to cram that into a two hour movie, with a completely different set of X-Men?

And one wonders - had Magneto known, and decided to join the X-Men in defending Jean, what kind of difference would it have made? I mean, Nightcrawler and Wolverine are formidable in their own venues... but Magneto might have stood a chance against Dark Phoenix, if only shortly. Enough so to trigger the transformation earlier? Might Magneto have destroyed the Shi'ar ship when Jean was beaten? I've not seen the movie yet... but I can't imagine it was "realistic."

Secondary tangent: I have long wished for a Superman (for example story) where a little girl comes up to him and asks, "Did you come back to life?" And when he says "yes", have her throw a complete fit, hitting and kicking, screaming, "Why do you all just bring your friends back from the dead? My daddy died, and I got three little brothers and my mama can't work! Why can't you bring him back when you can bring back Flash/Wonder Woman/Batman/etc.?" I can't imagine that a lot of people take that easily.