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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4178
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Posted: 25 June 2019 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 1
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Eric Sofer wrote:
Secondary tangent: I have long wished for a Superman (for example story) where a little girl comes up to him and asks, "Did you come back to life?" And when he says "yes", have her throw a complete fit, hitting and kicking, screaming, "Why do you all just bring your friends back from the dead? My daddy died, and I got three little brothers and my mama can't work! Why can't you bring him back when you can bring back Flash/Wonder Woman/Batman/etc.?" I can't imagine that a lot of people take that easily |
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Not quite the same thing, but one thing that's really come to bother me about Geoff Johns' (and others (see Kevin Smith guilting Oliver Queen out of heaven, Meltzer's scene in Identity Crisis where Ollie wonders when Hal is going to get himself resurrected already, etc.), but he's one of the worse offenders) work over the years is his tendency to write about death as an obstacle to overcome, but only for the select few.
In an early JSA story, he killed off Atom Smasher's mother in a plane crash. Then, a few issues later, he swapped her out for Extant. Great for Atom Smasher's mom, but what about the rest of the people on the plane? Or the end of Blackest Night, where various characters were randomly resurrected for no apparent reason and Barry and Hal's initial reaction was disappointment that Ralph and Sue weren't among them. All the people who died in that story and they didn't seem to care.
These people are supposed to be heroes, always willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of others. Stories where they work miracles to save their buddies undermines that in my eyes and I don't like it.
(Edited to correct embarrassing homonymal error.)
Edited by Dave Phelps on 25 June 2019 at 10:54am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132263
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Posted: 25 June 2019 at 10:01am | IP Logged | 2
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It’s all so “meta”. Fanboys turned “pro” playing with long established comic book tropes, but doing so as smug shout-outs to their ennui-engorged audience members. Simply put, the moment a writer thinks the characters should be aware of the cliches, it’s time for him/her to move on.
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Adam Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017 Posts: 1717
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Posted: 25 June 2019 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | 3
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The reason for the resurrection of specific characters in BLACKEST NIGHT was explored in BRIGHTEST DAY, the sequel, which didn't sell as well.
And I would never call Johns' writing "smug." Far, far from it. On the other hand, those who've interfered with his writing (I am 100% sure of this), like Dan DiDio...yeah, "smug" is pretty kind all things considering.
(And I don't like Kevin Smith's writing at all -- Meltzer is even worse -- but it is true that Oliver Queen's death was really, really stupid.)
Edited by Adam Schulman on 25 June 2019 at 4:18pm
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 25 June 2019 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | 4
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It’s all so “meta”. Fanboys turned “pro” playing with long established comic book tropes, but doing so as smug shout-outs to their ennui-engorged audience members. Simply put, the moment a writer thinks the characters should be aware of the cliches, it’s time for him/her to move on.
++++++++++++
I've come to the conclusion that this type of writing--where the characters acknowledge the absurdities of their world, and hang lampshades on "silly" tropes--is the death of storytelling.
The storytelling has to be organic, and the characters have to act in-character. Swinging at the easy jokes and going full-meta just crushes verisimilitude, and breeds readers who expect this sort of wink-wink mockery.
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7610
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Posted: 26 June 2019 at 2:51am | IP Logged | 5
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I can understand writers wanting to explore the ramifications of death. It's a good topic to go to.
But, they need to think through who they explore that with and what that means for an ongoing series. It's a bit like the changes thread as well.
Change and death are inevitable - but should they be in an ongoing series. Some characters have had changes thrust upon them that the weight of the constant change means that they might as well be dead - the character running around bears little to no resemblance to the original version, and the only way to redeem that character would be a reset.
I'm almost of the opinion that the only character you should be allowed to kill in an ongoing series would be one you yourself created. If someone else created the character, you don't get to kill them.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2291
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Posted: 26 June 2019 at 7:25am | IP Logged | 6
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If someone else created the character, you don't get to kill them._________
I've long thought that should be an official rule. That would also put everybody created by Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, and Steve Ditko off-limits...and I'm fine with that.
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Ted Pugliese Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005 Location: United States Posts: 7979
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Posted: 26 June 2019 at 7:38pm | IP Logged | 7
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Good stuff! Just re-read this thread, and now I feel the need to share my few thoughts on the matter of death in comics.
Phoenix should not have died because as far as I know, she was created by Stan & Jack (as Marvel Girl). Like Bucky or Wonder Man, only their creators should have been allowed to kill her, and after all that time, I don't think they would have.
This creator rule allows for the deaths of Elektra and Guardian; however, she should only have been allowed to be resurrected by Miller. Since John never really brought him back, as far as I am concerned, Mac is dead.
In short, you cannot kill someone else's character, and you can't bring back someone else's character.
Working with Jack, Stan gets a pass for killing Bucky, but the popularity of the Winter Soldier aside, he should have stayed dead.
Heck, it's Marvel. The world outside your window. Why is anybody coming back from the dead?
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Shane Matlock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 August 2012 Location: United States Posts: 1760
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Posted: 26 June 2019 at 11:59pm | IP Logged | 8
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When death is done correctly and not cheapened later by being negated by bringing back the character, it absolutely works. (Although fake out deaths which aren't actually deaths can also be well done.) The Death of Captain Marvel hit me hard reading it as a teenager. Kind of surprised Marvel hasn't screwed that up by bringing him back honestly, but I guess with Carol Danvers in the role now maybe it will stick.
Edited by Shane Matlock on 27 June 2019 at 12:14am
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