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Jim Petersman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 June 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 625
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| Posted: 25 June 2019 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 1
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Several recent threads had me thinking of my own comic book journey. As a child, I was fascinated by the action and the drama in which the good guys would always find a way to win. In my teens and early twenties I enjoyed the soap opera qualities of the books and loved the changes happening in the books and characters (Crisis, Dark Knight, Watchmen, Wonder Woman, etc). During this period I thought that they should push the changes even further. Why not have Batman kill or the villains prove to be right? Unfortunately, I got what I wanted. Identity Crisis wasn’t the end of my collecting, but it was the end of my enjoyment of collecting. Within a few years, I stopped altogether.
Somehow this got me to thinking of what “permanent” changes worked for me. Some of my answers really surprised me. I thought I would list them here in hopes that others will play along and list their own.
- Alicia dating Johnny. It made both characters so much more interesting and the relationship just felt authentic to me.
- Costume changes for the FF, Wonder Man, and Vision. Visually just so much better.
- Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing. I just wished he had stayed 18 years old.
- Along the same lines, Peter Parker feels more right to me as a college freshman than a high school student.
- I grew up with the “Hulk smash puny human” Hulk, but the Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde aspect of the character makes more sense to me (at least if the character is going to have his own title). The angry child aspect was far too limiting and if he wasn’t angry then why was he the Hulk?
- Surprisingly, I found myself liking Barbara Gordon more as Oracle than Batgirl. Oracle Barbara was smart, bold, and effective.
- Frank Miller’s take on Daredevil. I honestly have no idea what Daredevil was about before that time.
- The Perez Wonder Woman revamp.
I’m sure there are others, but those were the first to pop into my mind. What are some of yours?
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15772
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| Posted: 25 June 2019 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | 2
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I agree about the FF negative costumes and I actually don't mind Peter Parker being at University, though the problem is that once you initiate that change, he no longer stays permanently there. The thinking that had him graduate high school and advance to higher learning, is the same thinking that gets him a degree and into a bachelor's pad in Chelsea, and then into a permanent relationship with MJ and then married... and boom, implosion.
A lot of your items I was happy enough with at the time, but now don't feel so rosy about them. Alicia and Johnny I was quite happy with when I read those stories, but reflecting on it now, I don't see how this doesn't permanently drive a wedge between Johnny and Ben. Dick should have stayed as Robin; once you intro this aging, it creates a never-ending cycle of Robins, as we have seen. And it simply doesn't gibe with a permanently 30-year old Batman. The Mr Fixit Hulk I have no problem with, because it isn't a permanent change and never felt like one. The status quo could always revert back to the classic version. No view on Batgirl/Oracle. Frank Miller's take on Daredevil is great and I hugely respected and enjoyed his Born Again tale with Mazzuchelli... But with hindsight, the decision to destroy the legal career of Matt Murdoch, blow up the firm, etc, was going too far. Brilliantly dramatic within the story itself, but for me that really screws the ongoing character (I know in the Ann Nocenti run that followed, he was working as some kind of neighbourhood pro bono legal advisor, but I wasn't a regular reader. I presume they found a way to ultimately unwind Miller's change).
Permanent changes that I liked:
1. The streamlining and lower power levels that JB introduced to Superman (though it didn't end up being permanent).
2. No problem with Frank Miller changing Alfred to a long-standing retainer of the Wayne family. In fact, I like this.
3. She-Hulk getting stuck as her green alter-ego
4. Guardian dying (you beast!)
5. Though I prefer the original Beast, I can live with the blue furry one (though not the cat-faced abomination).
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132227
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| Posted: 25 June 2019 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 3
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Surprisingly, I found myself liking Barbara Gordon more as Oracle than Batgirl. Oracle Barbara was smart, bold, and effective.•• As would have been Batgirl, if she'd been shown a little respect by the writers.
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Adam Schulman
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Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
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| Posted: 25 June 2019 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | 4
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Barbara could've become Oracle without making THE KILLING JOKE canonical. That would've been much better. Characters who put on masks and capes can decide "I don't want to do this anymore" and just stop.
I like Tim Drake a lot but Dick Grayson should've simply been given a newer, better Robin costume. Would've prevented the slew of subsequent Robins. (FWIW, when I was 12, I always thought of Batman, and other adult characters, as permanently 35, not 29 or 30. Including Superman and Captain America.)
The simpleton Hulk is a great character if there's a writer who knows how to write him properly. Most didn't, or don't. (Hint: have him say "I" or "me" every now and then, like Stan Lee did, and don't have him talk and talk and talk until he sounds like a goofball.)
Nobody knew what to do with Daredevil until Miller came along. ("Sorry, he is in fact Batman, sort of.")
I started reading AMAZING SPIDER-MAN just before Peter quit grad school. That was a good example of the illusion of change.
I liked what JB did with the Vision aside from the color change. I preferred the old look, though I understood what JB was going for.
I was hoping once Beast went back to his original look in X-FACTOR it would stick, but no such luck.
The 1987 Wonder Woman reboot was great except for the continuity destruction. There must've been a way to do more-or-less with Perez did without erasing Diana's JSA membership, JLA membership, older-adopted-sisterhood with Donna Troy, etc.
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Charles Valderrama
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posts: 4720
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| Posted: 25 June 2019 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | 5
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I didn't mind the furry Beast... tho' I wished they would've kept him BLACK rather than BLUE.
Didn't mind Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing.
Wasn't bothered by Wally West becoming the Flash.
I was fine with JB's Superman.... especially Lex as a business man.
I think that's about the biggest changes I can think of that I didn't mind.
-C!
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Brian Miller
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Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25 June 2019 at 8:38pm | IP Logged | 6
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Spider-Man’s black costume Beta Ray Bill Dick becoming Nightwing Daredevil’s background as supplied by my cousin Frank
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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 25 June 2019 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 7
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The background, yes! Stick has become such an ingrained part of the Daredevil mythos that I find it easy to forget that Frank added all that. Great addition to the character.
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Greg Kirkman
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| Posted: 25 June 2019 at 9:02pm | IP Logged | 8
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It’s slightly mind-boggling that Miller (Frank, not Brian) retconned and expanded upon Daredevil’s background during his initial run, then retconned his own work a few years later for the MAN WITHOUT FEAR miniseries!
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 26 June 2019 at 12:26am | IP Logged | 9
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I think it's important to remember the topic of conversation, specifically "what changes worked for you?". Instead of dissecting Jim's original post and what worked for him, what worked for you specifically?
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Eric Jansen
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Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2291
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| Posted: 26 June 2019 at 1:39am | IP Logged | 10
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Phoenix--I never liked Marvel Girl's name or look. Changing her into Phoenix was brilliant. I wish we could have had the original five members back permanently, but in their new looks (Adams' Angel costume, Cockrum's Cyclops visor, etc.)
Blue furry Beast--I didn't care for the original fur-less version, and I really don't care for the later feline version. And his personality seemed to change with each look, and the "pointy-haired" version was the best look with the most fun personality.
Nightwing--Giving the almost legendary Dick Grayson a new name and costume was a risky move, but it worked! And I don't think it had to lead to a succession of new Robins--in fact, I thought one of the reasons to age Dick out of the Robin persona was to make Batman a loner again. It was time to retire the short pants and modern audiences were questioning the wisdom of a dark vigilante bringing a brightly clad child into dangerous situations--turning him into Nightwing made this needed change while still honoring his history.
Black Canary--Her sonic cry seemed like the final piece of the puzzle for this established character.
Elektra--Likewise, the creation of Elektra (and Stick and the rest of Frank Miller's additions) also seemed to be "final pieces of the puzzle" for Daredevil too. He felt complete now.
Captain America, man out of time--Twenty years after his creation by others, Stan Lee gave Captain America half of his raison d'etre! Being frozen during World War II and revived in the present day added SO MUCH to the character, it's hard to imagine him without that facet.
The "new" versions of the Flash, Green Lantern, and Batgirl (Barry, Hal, and Barbara) were great revisions of established names/personas. I can live without just about every other "replacement hero" since them though.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 26 June 2019 at 1:42am
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Michael Penn
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| Posted: 26 June 2019 at 5:36am | IP Logged | 11
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Changes I prefer: - Captain America's shield changing from heater-style to round.
- Lee-Kirby so quickly abandoning any suggestion that Professor X was in love with Jean Grey that the comicbook went on ever after as if he'd never even had that thought.
- Thor's becoming Thor and not Donald Blake as "Thor." (I do see, though, how a host of other potentially amazing stories might have been otherwise told -- but I love how adopting the Norse mythology opened that universe to Lee-Kirby)
- Dr. Strange's getting a new cloak and amulet.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 26 June 2019 at 6:14am | IP Logged | 12
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Lee-Kirby so quickly abandoning any suggestion that Professor X was in love with Jean Grey that the comicbook went on ever after as if he'd never even had that thought.•• They also abandoned that he was established as being in his twenties in the first issue!
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