Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 5 Next >>
Topic: How will the Brexit work? Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 562
Posted: 05 August 2019 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Darren Ashmore wrote:When Cameron won that election he HAD to follow through, totally misreading the zeitgeist and determination of the Leave side, and he genuinely believed the vote would go his way. ----------------------------------------------------------
Cameron had won the independence referendum, and then become the first Conservative PM with a clear majority since 1992. I'm convinced he was drunk on a sense of conviction that he'd get the result he wanted for the EU referendum too.

My understanding is that he probably wanted a narrow victory for "Remain", so that he could both keep Britain in the EU, but also lobby for concessions on the grounds that if they weren't met, a future referendum would swing in "Leave's" favour.

Edited by Steven Brake on 05 August 2019 at 12:58pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Darren Ashmore
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 952
Posted: 05 August 2019 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

JB, yes agreed. A 'margin of consensus' is a good idea.  If that margin isn't reached, then rerun the vote (although cost might then become an issue)
Back to Top profile | search
 
Darren Ashmore
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 952
Posted: 05 August 2019 at 1:02pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Steven, that would be my read on it too.  'Drunk on a sense of conviction' sums it up well, I like that!
Back to Top profile | search
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15837
Posted: 05 August 2019 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

It was referendum on whether the people of the UK wanted to leave or remain in the UK. The government was not duty-bound to act on the result.

However, prior to the referendum, the government mailed every household in the UK, stating the referendum was 'your decision. The government will implement what you decide.' LINK

It was not a referendum on whether to vote to leave. The question posed was simple: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

There was no question posed of how the leaving should be done, though the implications of leaving or staying had been laid out in the aforementioned leaflet. Only after the leave result came in really did people start to pay attention to talk of types of deals and whispers of no deals or even mention of a 'divorce' cost.

Brexit could be undone but it is extremely unlikely. Theresa May invoked article 50 in March 2017, meaning the UK was committed to leaving within 2 years. The EU agreed to extend the deadline to 31 October 2019 in April of this year. As things stand, the UK is hurtling towards a no-deal exit and PM Boris seems quite happy with this previously-unthinkable outcome. To avoid leaving, new laws would have to be passed. Parliament could do this all by itself, but have shown an inability to agree on anything regarding Brexit, let alone being seen to stand up and contradict what is perceived as the people's voice (though, in reality, we don't actually know if a majority of the UK public  remain in favour of Brexit).

As I see it, the only real chance of avoiding Brexit would be a snap general election in which the Tories are ousted and the public heavily backs Jo Swinson's Lib Dems. Unfortunately, this seems a very unlikely course of events.

Theresa May was trying for a damage-limitation type deal that would have been a fudge, leaving the UK with no voice in the EU, forced to pay into the EU for access to the common market, and with unresolved question marks over freedom of movement, but at least with constraints on the economic damage wrought by severing ties with the UK's most important trading partner (nearly half of everything the UK sells abroad is sold to the EU). And she couldn't get the backing for that.

No deal seems a very real possibility, which basically means massive economic damage to the UK and hand-cuffs on the potential for economic growth for years to come, threats to UK jobs, makes exporting to the EU more expensive and more difficult, a bit of a dent for the EU economically (the EU exports 8% of its goods to the UK), and possibly massive shortages on required imported goods, such as medicines. Also, reduced effectiveness in shared police information and less sharing of technology/scientific research. We have already seen the pound under massive pressure just from the increased chance of a no deal exit. That means inflation and a reduction to the average standard of living.

Perhaps the most damaging myth that has been peddled going back to the referendum campaigning is the idea of the UK being able to work out some clever deal that would give access to the common market but allow the UK to restrict freedom of movement. The EU has never given anyone full access to the common market without agreeing to freedom of movement. The closest is the deal with Canada which has very few tariffs on goods, but relatively high regulatory hurdles and big barriers on services (crucially, financial services do not have full access). London's financial services are the engine room of the UK economy. Cutting off that sector from Europe is therefore potentially crippling. Furthermore, the deal took 7+years to set up between Canada and the EU. The UK would be starting from square one.

Edited to correct typos


Edited by Peter Martin on 05 August 2019 at 1:15pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15837
Posted: 05 August 2019 at 1:12pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

And a super-majority being required would have been a great idea. But it became very hard for Remainers to make that argument after the result came in favour of leaving.

Edited by Peter Martin on 05 August 2019 at 1:12pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7654
Posted: 05 August 2019 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

It was a mess from the start, through to execution & now post referendum into implementation.

A straight 50:50 vote was madness. But, to be fair, as much moaning as we remainders are doing now, had the vote been the other way, you could bet you bottom dollar that there would be calls to back away in some form since 48% wanted to leave.

I don’t see any ground being given to the fact that the vote was so close. 

There is no attempt to heal this split in our nation & I think post October it will continue, unless there really is an economic turnaround, which I just don’t see happening.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Philippe Negrin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 August 2007
Location: France
Posts: 2644
Posted: 05 August 2019 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Frankly I don't see how the "UK" (or what will remain of it) will work out a way NOT to lose Northern Ireland???
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4583
Posted: 05 August 2019 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Canada faced a similar referendum held by Quebec on leaving and becoming a separate country where some Quebec voters were actually confused that they were voting for a sovereign association situation, and there was a lot of confusion (often deliberately fanned about whether Non could mean Oui and vice-versa... but luckily the matter was put to rest at least for while now and the status qua remained. Watching what is happening in other countries I am truly thankful for how that went to this day! The federal government did a 'no plan B' like David Cameron but got away with it. One of the major Quebecois leaders had a fit afterward blaming foreigners and outsiders (non-Francophones) and did all a favour (as I value having the French-Canadian culture stay) by further discrediting the idealistic cause.

Now, as for a second referendum on brexit... the only thing I know of that was lending any real credence to it happening was that many were saying they regretted their leave vote and since discovered it was not going to result in things they were promised (like increased health care spending without those newcomers sucking up the resources etc. etc.)

Scotland will leave over this if leaving the EU goes through, that is definite. There's a lot I know I don't know but that seems very clear. Hard brexit is going to be devastating, promises of some sweet exclusive trade deal from Donald Trump are pretty laughable. Isn't Boris an Eton 'rifle'? Seems Cameron who was one loved playing that song about them by the Jam totally not getting the actual cynical sarcastic message of the song... Boris cold be an improvement if at least he got that. Another famous case of someone who used a song in their campaign without recognizing the bitterness of lyric contain therein was Ronald Reagan using Bruce Springsteen's Born In the USA. The best and brightest? Might start with can they understand a basic message set to music. I don't see Boris J as getting a better leaving deal from the EU than May but maybe he will dress up something below what she managed as a yuuuge improvement?
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Leigh DJ Hunt
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 February 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1570
Posted: 06 August 2019 at 9:38am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

There shouldn't have been a referendum. If there was, it should have been worded better. And the Leave campaign should not have been allowed to lie throughout. There should have better education about the ramifications of the vote, the benefits being in the EU and why leaving the EU wouldn't affect the things that a lot of people were bothered about in the first place.

As you can imagine I am dreading 31/10 just as I was dreading the earlier deadlines. I'm hoping for a miracle but I can't see anything but chaos and economic disaster coming. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7654
Posted: 06 August 2019 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Right there with you Leigh.

I live in an area that had a high leave vote. Conversations have been bizarre to say the least.

People seem to get really upset when I point to empirical  data about negative effects that can be seen now - farming, value of the pound etc - & ask for equivalent positive data. Responses have been ‘we voted, just accept the pain’ which I just find to be madness
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 06 August 2019 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

"We'll muddle through." How veddy, veddy British. 

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Peter Hicks
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1895
Posted: 06 August 2019 at 10:47am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Q: Does Boris have the authority all on his own to now proceed with a no deal Brexit, or does it still need a majority vote in Parliament (which will be near impossible to get)?
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 5 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login