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Topic: Et tu, Moira!? Or...what makes a mutant - SPOILERS Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 12 August 2019 at 6:22am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

My dislike of the Illuminati concept is that having a secret group that consists of Professor X, Mister Fantastic, Iron Man, Black Panther, Black Bolt, and The Sub Mariner proves that humans might have a reason to not trust mutants and people with super powers. There's nothing heroic about the Illuminati.

Ed Brubaker really got the"Charles Xavier is kind of a scumbag" rolling and no one who has written him since seems to want to roll that back.


Edited by Shawn Kane on 12 August 2019 at 6:26am
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 12 August 2019 at 8:22am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

"Claremont had Betsy Braddock die and reincarnate in the body of a Japanese ninja."

At the time, I'm sure it was something like "Betsy's around all the time--what can we do with her?"  In retrospect, it would have been so much better to leave Betsy Betsy and introduce a brand new character clean, an actual Japanese woman with a background and personality of her own.

The thing with Moira is--she never should have been killed in the first place!  (Marvel writers seem to like killing normal human supporting characters way too much!)  The history of comics seems to be full of (after Writer A has created something cool): Writer B ruining something, then Writer C comes in trying to fix it.  And then another Writer B comes in again.  Lather, rinse, repeat.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 August 2019 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Ed Brubaker really got the"Charles Xavier is kind of a scumbag" rolling and no one who has written him since seems to want to roll that back.

•••

That’s an all too pervasive attitude, and it’s been around a long time. SHIELD is corrupt!* The Chief caused all those accidents! Xavier is a “scumbag”! Reed knew what the space flight would do! Cap is really a Hydra agent!

“Oh, no! This character is an authority figure! I have to tarnish him or people won’t think I’m COOL!”

____________________

• Bob Harras offered me a SHIELD/Nick Fury series, and this was one of the reasons I declined it.

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Juan Gomez
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Posted: 12 August 2019 at 10:35am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Shawn, thanks for the information on the Hickman interview. That makes sense to me. It is hard to deny that, at least visually speaking, those character designs had a lasting impact...even long after Jim Lee himself had left Marvel. You can still find plenty of merchandise featuring his version of those characters.

Regarding the Illuminati, I would say the better stories involving that concept were those which properly focused on the consequences of said secrecy and lack of trust. In other words, when the narrative acknowledged that organizing such a cabal really wasn't the ethically correct thing for a group of heroes to do.

By the end of Hickman's run, he had rightfully made the entire house of cards fall on top of its members. He didn't come up with the idea in the first place, because that secret group was already a part of the Marvel Universe, but I believe he gave it a coherent burial and facilitated a return to true heroism.

Speaking about Xavier, I think Mike Carey did a nice job during the brief part of his X-Men run that focused on Professor X. He re-established that Xavier, despite his flaws and mistakes (which aren't an entirely modern creation), was still fundamentally a good person. Perhaps that doesn't count as "rolling back" the facts, but at least for me it was a well-written rehabilitation.

For the record, I wasn't a big fan of Ed Brubaker's Deadly Genesis either.


Edited by Juan Gomez on 12 August 2019 at 10:40am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 August 2019 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Rule One for writers of pre-existing characters:

PROTECT AND SERVE.

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Chris Rayman
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Posted: 12 August 2019 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Hickman is the guy who managed to tear down all the love and goodwill built up over the previous 35 years so I'm not surprised he's destroying "everything we know" about the X-Men. I honestly thought it would be different with Cebulski (or anyone!) having replaced Axel but as JB says, these days at Marvel the singer is more important than the song.

Needless to say, I won't be reading this. Hickman (and to a lesser extent, others) made me stop reading Marvel. I've picked up one disappointing, cross-title Avengers story since then and am currently reading (and unbelievably NOT hating) the current Invaders book. I seriously doubt I'll ever go back to the point I was before.
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Juan Gomez
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Posted: 12 August 2019 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

You really think it was that bad, Chris?

I suppose you can never please everyone though. I liked Hickman's past runs, so there's definitely going to be a rather clear contrast between our personal opinions in that regard...but I think it's much more important to point out how we should not blame one man, let alone a single work-for-hire writer, for problems that are structural. After all, Hickman did put all the toys back in the box when he was finished. Almost literally too, as a matter of fact, which was a lot less destructive than you're implying.

In other words, I'd blame editorial more than any writer (but, if we must name writers, I'll gladly take him over Bendis on Avengers any day).


Edited by Juan Gomez on 12 August 2019 at 11:35am
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 12 August 2019 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Bendis was the "leader" among writers destroying the Marvel Universe. Others were just footsoldiers.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 August 2019 at 12:15pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Bendis was the "leader" among writers destroying the Marvel Universe. Others were just footsoldiers.

••

There's a phrase about "following orders" that comes to mind....

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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 12 August 2019 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Another thought about the All-New, All-Different Moira; if she brings her complete memories from the previous, how has she not gone mad?

ITEM: Let's posit she passed at 50 once. Then, flexing back in time, this newborn infant has 50 years of memory. And she can do NOTHING. She can't walk, talk, write, read... she can sleep a lot. She can see her family and their friends, literally writ large. And it will be TWO YEARS at least before she can start to change it. Even if she knows how to walk and talk... a newborn's body doesn't. The nerves, muscles, etc. have to learn how to walk. And while she could be practicing... wouldn't that suggest something serious wrong? "Och, look at Moira! Six months old and already nearly walking. An' if ye listen close, it sounds like she's truly talkin' already." "D'ye think we should call the doctor about this?"

ITEM: Is her memory perfect?* If not, what would she lose as she grows up? Her relationship with Charles Xavier might remain... but there's a lot of clutter that might remain. We don't get to choose what we forget, when we forget.

*CAN a baby's brain hold fifty years of memories?

ITEM: I don't know about you... but I really wouldn't like to go through sixth grade again. Or my first bike. Or when my grandparents passed away. Growing up, she probably couldn't change enough to effect any differences. "Gran! Grampa! Don' go to the football match today! Ye're gonna be in a traffic accident an' die!" "Moira, now what fantasies are ye spoutin'? We'll be jus' fine."

ITEM: And if naught else... what the hell could she feel when nursing? How ignominious would that be? How about potty training? Again... she knows how to defecate. Her body DOESN'T.

Am I putting too much thought into this? Maybe. but I think would be basic - who wants to be a baby again?
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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 12 August 2019 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Eric,

Excellent points - but as this has quickly turned into a "Hickman Apologetics" thread don't expect a satisfactory answer.

Martc


Edited by Marc Baptiste on 12 August 2019 at 1:42pm
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Juan Gomez
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Posted: 12 August 2019 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

It's a fair question. Strictly speaking, we don't know yet, but simply based on past experience with other characters in comics who aren't automatically hurt or crippled by their own abilities...I imagine you could argue such a mutant power has to incorporate a mental or physical safeguard that somehow minimizes self-harm. Nonetheless, this is speculation, so maybe it still takes a gradual toll on the individual.

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