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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 27 September 2019 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply


 QUOTE:
Totally disagree.  Nixon’s weren’t narrow.  Clinton’s were.  And so the response became ‘This whole thing is about an affair.’  And that’s exactly what the Republicans are doing in response.  It makes it look like a game of gotcha.  As opposed to, as with Nixon, establishing a clear pattern of criminal behavior with multiple examples and incidents.

My understanding is that throughout the Watergate Scandal, the American public had grown tired of the whole thing and was largely opposed to impeachment. It was the Saturday Night Massacre and the revelation of the Smoking Gun tape that had changed everyone's mind, not showing a pattern of criminal behavior.


 QUOTE:
And the whole ‘reverse the election’ meme is insipid.  No matter what happens with impeachment, Hillary Clinton will not become President.  This is what I mean about incompetence with the mainstream Democrats.  They can’t even cal out the other side on obvious BS.

Of course, it's insipid. That's why I'm gobsmacked that you think logic will convince people who are acting on emotion and tribalism. This is a draft-dodging President who attacks former POWs, insults Gold Star families, raids military budgets for a useless wall, and yet his supporters claim his the most patriotic President in history because he dryhumps a flag. Sure, let's convince them by showing a complex pattern of criminal behavior.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 27 September 2019 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Well. JB, you’re in it now:

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Brian Miller
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Posted: 27 September 2019 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Trump has asked the NRA for money for his impeachment defense which they will provide as long as he “stops the games” with gun control. 
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 27 September 2019 at 7:57pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

NRA doing what they can to block any progressive gun laws... figures.

Still, the fallout continues... Trump's supporters are bailing. Trump’s Envoy for Ukraine, Kurt Volker has resigned. Plus, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was issued subpoenas to hand over documents concerning contacts with the Ukrainian government.

If (or when) Pompeo ignores these Congressional Subpoenas, lock him up and fine him per day.

-C!


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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 September 2019 at 8:07pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

This must be some new usage of the phrase “in it” with which I was not previously familiar.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 27 September 2019 at 8:24pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

No. Just poorly worded. 
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 27 September 2019 at 8:24pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

It was the Saturday Night Massacre and the revelation of the Smoking Gun tape that had changed everyone's mind, not showing a pattern of criminal behaviour
--------------------
This is my understanding as well, Michael. Without the smoking gun tape, Nixon may well have clung on.

As for Steve's assertion that Hillary Clinton was crippled as a candidate by Benghazi, I don't think so. How did she get more votes than anyone else in that election if she was crippled as a candidate? 

She had nearly 3 million votes more than Trump. That's about 2% of the voter turnout. It was only the 4th time in history that a candidate has won the popular vote but lost the election. Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania were the states that decided it. All three together swung on just 107,000 votes. It was a paper-thin margin. And we know the US intelligence community firmly believes Russia attempted to influence voters via cyber warfare to negatively affect Hillary Clinton.


Edited by Peter Martin on 27 September 2019 at 8:25pm
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 27 September 2019 at 11:09pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

So which counter-factual are we arguing, that Hillary didn’t lose or that ‘crooked Hillary’ didn’t stick?  She lost.  To a moronic reality star.  In an election that all of the experts considered unable to be lost.  The People I’ve known who voted for Trump in 2016, in red states, fall into two categories.  A few of them are Pro-Lifers who vote solely on the basis of Supreme Court appointments.  The vast majority of them hate the Clintons and consider them the source of all evil and corruption.  Benghazi and the email server are what they hung their hats on.  None of them actually like or defend Trump as a human.  They swallowed their personal dislike of him for the above two reasons.

So yeah, the Benghazi inquiries and their product turned the election.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 27 September 2019 at 11:11pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Vis a vis using reason and logic to convince Trump supporters, of course not.  They froth at the mouth.  I want to convince mainstream Republicans to stay home and everyone else to go vote against the human stain.  And maybe, if they telegraph that in the polling, enough Republicans I’m the Senate will turn on him to save their own skins and boot him early.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 27 September 2019 at 11:39pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

 Michael Roberts wrote:
My understanding is that throughout the Watergate Scandal, the American public had grown tired of the whole thing and was largely opposed to impeachment. It was the Saturday Night Massacre and the revelation of the Smoking Gun tape that had changed everyone's mind, not showing a pattern of criminal behavior.

Having lived through it in real time, this is true.  The Saturday Night Massacre, in particular, was the turning point and then the follow through with the unreacted tapes. Not the transcripts (which were highly edited) but the actual tapes.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 27 September 2019 at 11:45pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 Steve De Young wrote:
So yeah, the Benghazi inquiries and their product turned the election.

Who gives a good goddamn?  Can we stop legislating the 2016 election and focus on the now?  This impeachment isn't about 2016.  It's about what Trump did two fucking months ago.  And...AND...more than likely did two years ago in calls to Putin, discussions with Russian diplomats as well as just a year ago with the Saudis. Putin wouldn't be concerned about his conversations with Trump otherwise.  

2016 is in the past.  This is about the here and now.  
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 28 September 2019 at 1:14am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

 Steve De Young wrote:
 None of them actually like or defend Trump as a human.  They swallowed their personal dislike of him for the above two reasons.

Sorry, but you're giving them a HUGE out.  "They swallowed their personal dislike" of a man to vote him into THE HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE LAND.  That's not the average Trump supporter I know and, trust me, I've got several in my family.  They voted for him because they liked him.  They didn't do it because they hated the Clintons, but they were preternaturally disposed to vote Republican.  Trump, to many I know, is equal to or greater than Reagan based on him playing to the Christian base: anti-abortion, pro-guns, small government.  "Grab them by the pussy" is inconvenient, as are his multiple marriages, infidelities, and dubious business dealings that enrich himself at the expense of the taxpayer, but his end result is seen as benefiting and enriching the average American.  I've got several Trumpers in my orbit who hail the man as one of many with "failings" but, nevertheless, feel he's a solid individual with America's best interests at heart.  Far from someone "swallowing" the obvious bile for one over the other. 
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