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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 12 October 2019 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Interesting article about the way bees perform better in complex tasks when there is risk and reward, not just reward, and extrapolated, how this may apply to other animals.


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In the experiment, honey bees were trained to enter a Y-shaped maze and given the task of distinguishing between a card with four shapes on it, or another card with either eight, seven, six or five shapes on it.

When they correctly selected the card with four shapes, they were rewarded with a sip of sweet sugary water. But half the bees, when they incorrectly picked the other card, were given a sip of bitter quinine-flavoured water instead.

Bees that were trained with the reward when they got the answer right and the penalty when they got the answer wrong performed much better than bees that were trained with the reward alone.


It made me wonder if today's education system, with its focus on rewarding children for being correct, but not necessarily punishing them for being wrong, is actually holding back their development?
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 12 October 2019 at 10:36pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

It made me wonder if today's education system, with its focus on rewarding children for being correct, but not necessarily punishing them for being wrong, is actually holding back their development?

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Ugh. Gross. No. Bad science journalism.

These results are in accord with several learning theories and are what the bee researchers discussed. Feedback is important for learning. Motivation is important for learning. 

I'd also argue that the idea of "desirable difficulty" is at play. When a learning task is not challenging, it imparts a false sense of fluency. Things that make it more difficult to learn something initially can actually improve learning in the long-term.

None of this requires us to rethink our ideas of punishing children.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 12 October 2019 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

If you want to learn experimentally about a part of a certain field, you set up your experiment to tell you about that specific part of that certain field.

It's a rather large stretch to think this experiment tells us anything about human children.

The best information we have on what helps or hinders child development are experiments designed to explore just that area. As Michael says, such experiments have tended to show that some level of challenge aids motivation and learning -- that thinking you can kick into cruise control tends to hinder personal development.

"None of this requires us to rethink our ideas of punishing children"

Definitely! Put that rod away!


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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 13 October 2019 at 12:02am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

By punishment, I wasn't referring to physical punishment (title notwithstanding). I'm referring to the concept that where there is no risk and all reward, there is less incentive to be cautious - something that the article specifically refers to at one point:


 QUOTE:
...having a penalty for when a bee makes the wrong choice slows them down, and they become much more accurate.

In the case of the honey bees, avoiding a sip of the bitter water could increase their motivation to choose more accurately.

"It's almost like they're thinking of the consequences of their actions," Dr Howard said.


In my case, growing up, I was frequently motivated to be correct at school not because of any reward, rather, the fear of embarrassment and ridicule. Something I understand is not part of modern education.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 13 October 2019 at 1:07am | IP Logged | 5 post reply


 QUOTE:
I'm referring to the concept that where there is no risk and all reward, there is less incentive to be cautious - something that the article specifically refers to at one point:


That is what I was referring to as well. That is about feedback and motivation, not specifically punishment, even though in this experiment, the aversive taste was the form of feedback.


 QUOTE:
In my case, growing up, I was frequently motivated to be correct at school not because of any reward, rather, the fear of embarrassment and ridicule. Something I understand is not part of modern education.

Sorry that you had a shitty school experience. Fear of embarrassment and ridicule is not necessary for learning and has more negative consequences (learned helplessness, aversion to school) than positive ones.
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 14 October 2019 at 6:46am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

My experience wasn't so much shitty, as what I would consider a controlled dose of reality; an immunisation to the far greater rigours of the real world. The ridicule we handed out to each other, both friend and foe, for even the smallest mistake, in high school in particular, has never been matched since!

I think it's true to say that we are all disproportionately more affected by criticism than praise. Let a hundred people thank you, and just one damn you, and chances are you remember that one, while the hundred others blend into the background.

Fear of punishment of some sort - a truly negative, unpleasant consequence - is, I think, more effective in focusing the mind than simply "negative feedback". That was my inference from the bee experiment, the fact that the bees physically slowed down and focused on the task to avoid drinking the bitter fluid, which made them perform better than anyone had expected.

There's a reason why we generally learn more from making mistakes, than from people telling us about not making those mistakes, and I suspect it's to do with the way our brain creates and retains memories: relatively traumatic events create strong memories and impulses.

But again, this is all just what I infer as a layman, though it is reinforced by what I observe of the younger generation today: a general lack of the fear of any real consequences seems to be making a lot of kids fairly mediocre intellectually.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 14 October 2019 at 7:23am | IP Logged | 7 post reply


 QUOTE:
My experience wasn't so much shitty, as what I would consider a controlled dose of reality; an immunisation to the far greater rigours of the real world. The ridicule we handed out to each other, both friend and foe, for even the smallest mistake, in high school in particular, has never been matched since!

In other words, shitty. High school kids today get a lot of flack from old grumps for being oversensitive, but I see more that kids today find the casual misogyny, homophobia, and general bullying unacceptable.


 QUOTE:
I think it's true to say that we are all disproportionately more affected by criticism than praise.

Certainly. It piles on a bunch of unnecessary negative effects instead of the actual ones we're trying to promote. If the goal is to have a bunch of undesirable and unintended effects on a person, punishment is the way to go.


 QUOTE:
Fear of punishment of some sort - a truly negative, unpleasant consequence - is, I think, more effective in focusing the mind than simply "negative feedback".

Years of learning research disagrees with you.


 QUOTE:
There's a reason why we generally learn more from making mistakes, than from people telling us about not making those mistakes, and I suspect it's to do with the way our brain creates and retains memories: relatively traumatic events create strong memories and impulses.

We learn more from making mistakes than from people telling us about those mistakes because it's a deeper level of processing. It's active learning vs passive learning. I'd again refer you to learning research in "desirable difficulty" by Bjork.

As for traumatic events, it's a bit more complex than that. Emotional associations are formed in the amygdala, and episodic memories are formed in the hippocampus. There's evidence that emotional arousal can both make episodic memory fuzzier or that it can enhance it if you produce the same arousal state. So your choices there seem to be making learning worse or improving learning as long as you retraumatize the person. Neither seems desirable.


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But again, this is all just what I infer as a layman

Which is contrary to actual research in learning. But you know, bees.

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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 14 October 2019 at 11:02am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

The greatest torments I suffered in elementary, junior high and high school came from OTHER children.  Of course, this was in no small part due to the fact that I could/would never really hide being gay all that well.  Things got so bad that I could not even walk down a hallway without being hyper aware of every step I took, for fear of being "bumped into", pushed aside, tripped, etc.

While I oppose corporal punishment in principle, trust me, children today (as in the past) are in desperate need of more discipline, consequences for their actions and structure than they are given.

Marc
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 14 October 2019 at 8:12pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

When I talk about ridicule Marc, I mean making fun of people in a joking but embarrassing way, not out-and-out beatings and bullying. I copped a lot of it, being one of the few noticeably different kids in a school of 99% white native-born Australians. But I gave it back as good as I got it, and as I say, no bones were broken and I didn't dread going to school every day. It prepared me for the fact that the real world doesn't pull any punches, and unfortunately, nobody can protect you from verbal or even physical harassment 24/7. I learned strategies like a sense of humour to deflect attention and lower tensions, it made me start training at the gym in my late teens, so I could stand up for myself, and it also helped me learn to run faster ;) Joking aside, these are basic life skills everyone needs. Society is never going to be 100% fair, nor 100% safe.

But I think the key point is the word Marc used which is "discipline". Not so much punishment, because punishment is synonymous with physical harm. I believe discipline cannot work without some form of fairly strong negative consequence. Simply saying to a child that they can't watch their favourite TV show or use their phone for a few hours or a few days, aside from being unenforceable in this day and age, is hardly a strong, memorable, negative consequence.

While I accept what you're saying Michael, I think you're arguing more against corporal punishment, or harassment which is not what I'm promoting.

What do parents use these days to discipline children, and does it work in your honest opinion?
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 15 October 2019 at 8:36am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

High school kids today get a lot of flack from old grumps for being oversensitive, but I see more that kids today find the casual misogyny, homophobia, and general bullying unacceptable.

I've taught high school for the last twenty years and while I can agree that kids are more accepting to things like homosexuality and disabilities, many have lost the ability to cope with things like not getting the highest grade in the class, making a sports team or club, or even being criticized or corrected in many areas. I feel that many parents nowadays have given their kids a false sense of superiority in trying to build up their confidence in certain areas.

My parents disciplined me with things like paddlings and grounding me but as I got older, I was more concerned with disappointing them. I used to tell my Mom that I'd rather get spanked than have her tell me that she's disappointed in me. As a parent, I gave my daughter a little hit on her rear end once when she was five after completely disregarding my wife's sternly worded correction a minute before. She's eight now and I've never had to do it since then but if she's not listening, a look from me or her mom telling her not to do something will suffice. 
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 15 October 2019 at 9:12am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I feel that many parents nowadays have given their kids a false sense of superiority in trying to build up their confidence in certain areas.

——-

I can agree with that, but I think that is more of a function of parents not allowing their kids to be disappointed and teaching them how to cope with being disappointed. There are plenty of opportunities for children to face and handle disappointment without parents having to create that situation for them. 
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 15 October 2019 at 9:50am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I agree. I see many parents today that are trying to right the "wrongs" that were done to them growing up. School is one of the areas where you see it a lot. That teacher that gave you a hard time growing up? Your kid isn't going to have to take that. If your kid gets in trouble or fails, it's obviously the fault of someone else! 

That attitude isn't the majority of people but it's grown a good bit over the years.
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