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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 02 December 2019 at 7:16pm | IP Logged | 1
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My FANTASTIC FOUR has been praised as second only to Lee and Kirby. Not to say I agree, but I think that gives me a special voice in this, and I would never, ever claim to have had any part in the “creation” of those characters. It would take an ego far bigger than mine to make such a claim.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
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| Posted: 02 December 2019 at 8:22pm | IP Logged | 2
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Not creating a character doesn't diminish being the creator of some of the best stories for that character.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 02 December 2019 at 9:00pm | IP Logged | 3
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Some people confuse creation and being creative.
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Robert Bradley
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Joined: 20 September 2006
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| Posted: 02 December 2019 at 9:05pm | IP Logged | 4
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There is creation and there is development.
The characters are created once. Anything after that....
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
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| Posted: 02 December 2019 at 9:40pm | IP Logged | 5
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Not creating a character doesn't diminish being the creator of some of the best stories for that character.
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True, but to many modern day ego driven creators that's not enough. These ego driven creators want to be famous and get interviewed by the mainstream news media and get work in Hollywood and will do just about anything to achieve their goal/dream. So you will get someone like King who isn't satisfied with his own accomplishments and creations and therefore wants to be given co-creator credit for characters who are more popular and more recognizable than anything he has created.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
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| Posted: 02 December 2019 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | 6
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Ooo, ooo, I want to open a box of controversy!
What about teams of characters? Wolfman and Perez created the New Teen Titans... but not Changeling (sigh...), Kid Flash, Robin or Wonder Girl. I personally don't consider this creation, but I wouldn't argue with someone who insists on it.
Then we get to teams of Avengers or Justice Leaguers - especially with characters as the Vision, Red Tornado, etc.
Any wild thoughts on that?
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Ron Grant
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 December 2016
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 02 December 2019 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | 7
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What about teams of characters? Wolfman and Perez created the New Teen Titans... but not Changeling (sigh...), Kid Flash, Robin or Wonder Girl
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Wolfman and Perez created Cyborg,Starfire and Raven The new Teen Titans... Changeling (I Agree sigh...), Kid Flash, Robin and Wonder Girl hung out with them :)
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Rick Whiting
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Joined: 22 April 2004
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| Posted: 02 December 2019 at 10:50pm | IP Logged | 8
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What about teams of characters? Wolfman and Perez created the New Teen Titans... but not Changeling (sigh...), Kid Flash, Robin or Wonder Girl. I personally don't consider this creation, but I wouldn't argue with someone who insists on it.
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They would be credited for creating the new characters in that book and revamping the original concept.
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Eric Jansen
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Joined: 27 October 2013
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| Posted: 03 December 2019 at 12:47am | IP Logged | 9
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Honestly, I can't think of any other possible exception besides Daredevil. Wood and Miller fundamentally changed the character's foundations, and that certainly deserves permanent mention.
Characters like Nightwing, Hellcat, and Phoenix should get new creator credit because they really are new characters, even though their "secret identities" are old characters. As we've seen MANY times through the years (and especially lately), the face behind the mask can always be changed, it's the trademark (sadly) that matters. Claremont & Cockrum created Phoenix and Lee & Kirby created Marvel Girl/Jean Grey--what happens if the storyline makes somebody else Phoenix? All of a sudden, Lee and Kirby have absolutely no connection to Phoenix.
What if Marvel revised Daredevil's origin, completely removing his red & yellow outfit period and went straight to the Wood design, would Wood then get the credit? At least co-credit?
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Koroush Ghazi
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| Posted: 03 December 2019 at 1:43am | IP Logged | 10
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John Byrne wrote:
| Some people confuse creation and being creative. |
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I understand what you mean, and I think Rick is right in saying that many people simply want the credit of "creating" something popular, likely because it involves potentially large financial rewards too.
But there's nothing to indicate that greater weight needs to be put on the act of creating, as opposed to being creative with, a character.
For example, She-Hulk was created in 1980 and is credited to Stan Lee and John Buscema. But I doubt any serious super-hero fan could deny the much greater influence you had JB on developing her into the popular character today. Before your involvement, she was largely a generic spin-off character.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 03 December 2019 at 5:49am | IP Logged | 11
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Roger Stern decided Jen enjoyed being She-Hulk. That’s what got me interested.
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Dave Phelps
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 03 December 2019 at 6:22am | IP Logged | 12
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Eric Jansen wrote:
| Honestly, I can't think of any other possible exception besides Daredevil. Wood and Miller fundamentally changed the character's foundations, and that certainly deserves permanent mention. |
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I'd think Claremont + early "All-New X-Men" artists may qualify, esp. with someone like Wolverine. Len Wein created a hot headed teenager whose claws were in the gloves. That's not the Wolverine we have.
Alternatively, there's Bobbi Norse/Mockingbird. Gerry Conway and Barry Windsor-Smith created what seemed to be a brunette with psychic abilities. Then others took over the Ka-Zar strip and she became a blonde secret agent.
Back to the original question, 99.99% of the time I'd say "no." But if you get to them quickly enough (say, either within the first year of creation or the first few appearances), I can see an argument being made for it.
(With your example, I can see Wood but don't agree with Miller. Miller was certainly influential, but the character was well-established long before he got ahold of him.)
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