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Peter Martin
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

So Jack Kirby should get a credit as a co-creator of Captain America?

Simon conceived the name, designed the costume, drew the first image of Captain America with the costume no different to the famous one we know and love and wrote 'CAPTAIN AMERICA' above it. Different shield, of course. Then he roughs out the entire first issue and gives it to Kirby to finish the art.

And Kirby goes down as co-creator. Influential to the character through work done after the original creation? Absolutely. As was Stan. But not part of the original act of creation.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

By the current definition at DC and Marvel, the first artist to draw a character, even if working from a full script or someone else's layouts, is considered the "co-creator". This has proven profitable for me (Suicide Squad, Amanda Waller), but I can't say I fully agree with the concept.

I spoke with Simon once, and he was not at all shy about taking full credit for Captain America. In his day, the lines (no pun) were much more clearly drawn.

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Good answer! Thanks for the info. Casually chatting with Joe Simon about creating Captain America. It's like something out of Doctor Who! 
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I have only created The Human Screwdriver, but he is the only hero I know of with interchangeable heads. ((beams with pride)) Er, uh, Kryten who?

Oh, and his sidekick Pineapple Woman, that is entirely all my genius, but she just arrives with pina coladas or singapore slings after the action is over. These are mature readers concepts y'all.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 2:44pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I guess it all started with bob Kane having to be credited on batman even when he didn't work on a particular issue? In that way it was sort of like the newspaper strips when they were ghosted by someone else... like L'il Abner always said Al Capp (sometimes it was Lou Fine or others), and of course Mickey Mouse said Walt Disney. The modern creator credit thing seems to have begun with the landmark Siegel & Shuster billing on Superman which Neal Adams helped spearhead for them.
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Dave Kopperman
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

An ideal scenario would be some kind of tiered credit system, where creators who didn't necessarily originate a character but without whom those characters wouldn't be, y'know, the ones we now think of.  Wally Wood with Daredevil, JB with Wolverine, Ditko with Iron Man and the Hulk, etc.  Although properly apportioning some sort of royalty system would no doubt be a logistical nightmare, it would ultimately both better reflect the nature of comics production and be more properly remunerative for WFH creators.

Barring something like that, it'd be nice if at the very least the companies that owned the IP rights for these characters or some 'official' agency (lord knows what that means, but anyway) kept a clear, accessible documentation laying out the various important creative permutations of these characters and named those responsible.  If only so that we don't end up with an authorship question decades or centuries down the line.  It's a nightmare with Shakespeare, I can't even imagine what a nightmare current legal creator credits will be for future comics historians. 

An aside: in extreme scenarios where the original character somehow fails to catch on but really hits big once another creator makes their changes, it seems similar to the way we think about bands that trotted along for a couple of albums and then hit it big after a couple of line-up changes, and THAT'S the line-up people think of when thinking of the band.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Influential later contributors should be credited with their contributions, none of which include creation. Wally Wood is properly credited with the design of Daredevil's red costume. Trying to thereby shoehorn him into the creation of the character is dishonest, which no one seems to have any trouble with these days. He did not create Daredevil. He re-designed his appearance, which is cool and great and fantastic and key to the character's enduring appeal, yes. But he wasn't there when the character was... wait for it... created. 

Once an "ideal" tiered credit system is put in place, we will never again see Batman work another case. "Creator" 14,583 will make this month's issue all about the background history of the smelly, gray bat-creature Bruce encountered when he was eight years old; the one that possessed him and claimed him as his own, inhabiting him in a way that makes HIM the one, true Batman; the power behind the cowl all along... See, everyone? He just "created" Batman from the ground up! That's gotta be worth some of that sweet, sweet royalty money! Next issue, "creator" 14,584 will establish the Court of Bats, the race the gray bat-creature originates from, and take us through their long history... See, everyone? He just "created" the Bat-Creature all over again, which we already know is the crimefighting spirit that dwells within the one, true Batman! Write him a check! Next issue, "creator" 14, 585 will establish that Batman has no inhabiting spirit within him, but is rather a classic split-personality! That is SO absolutely key to what makes the character work, am I right? Check, please! Now able to retire alongside "creators" 14, 583 & 14,584, he leaves the book to "creator" 14,586 who will put Batman in a green costume. Total revamp! Wow. Looks sharp, sir. Here is this month's royalty check to you. You totally owned Batman this month, and your contribution will endure for all time. Next month, "creator" 14, 587; blue costume! Month after that, "creator" 14, 588; purple sparkly costume, like Yvonne Craig used to wear! SO groovy, right? Write that genius creator a check...


Edited by Brian Hague on 03 December 2019 at 5:55pm
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Rick Whiting
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 6:14pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Imagine Tom King being credited as the co-creator of Mister Miracle. Or the Vision.

__________________________________


It wouldn't surprise me if that is the main reason why King proposed this asinine and ego driven suggestion. Remember, there is a New Gods movie coming out and the Wandavision TV series for Disney+ will also be out soon as well. Both of those projects are reportedly based either heavily or partly off of King's Mister Miracle and Vision maxi series.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 7:29pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Yeah, I guess that's simple enough: something is what it is. Wally Wood designed the costume for DD, Trina Robbins designed the one for Vampirella, Fred Hembeck designed Fred Hembeck (but his parents created him).
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Greg McPhee
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Posted: 04 December 2019 at 5:35am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

It wouldn't surprise me if that is the main reason why King proposed this asinine and ego driven suggestion. Remember, there is a New Gods movie coming out and the Wandavision TV series for Disney+ will also be out soon as well. Both of those projects are reportedly based either heavily or partly off of King's Mister Miracle and Vision maxi series.

======================================================

King may be disappointed to learn Roy Thomas and the beneficiaries of Stan Lee and John Buscema will be further up the queue when it comes to The Vision.
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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 04 December 2019 at 7:15am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

And it gets even more confusing when you have a character (Ms. Marvel) who is "created" based on an existing character (Captain Mar-Vell) using an established supporting character (Carol Danvers) and using mainly Spider-Man supporting characters (J. Jonah Jameson, Robbie Robertson, Peter Parker, Mary Jane Watson) and a Spider-Man villian (Scorpion) her first issue.

What exactly do we call that??

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John Byrne
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Posted: 04 December 2019 at 7:17am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Marvel Comics!
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