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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 24 February 2020 at 7:57am | IP Logged | 1
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Steve D: "Bernie doesn't need a single Republican vote to win. He doesn't need to convert a single Trump voter."
So true. In fact, he'll do better with more Republican NON-voters! For so many years, every candidate has had to account for voter apathy - in the end, it's how Hillary Clinton lost in 2016.
Part of my hopes hang on all those Republicans zealots and sycophants* relying on political inertia for Trump, i.e., "He'll get in, of course. He's a shoe-in. So I don't have to vote."
It's not polarized; it happens in BOTH parties. I hope it's the Republicans' turn.
*Yes, I know these are two types who probably WILL vote.
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David Allen Perrin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2009 Location: United States Posts: 3534
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Posted: 24 February 2020 at 9:14am | IP Logged | 2
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“My goals in life are to make as much money as I can to live the life I want, to help family and people I want to help, and to tell everyone else to screw themselves.”
Ok...the first part is a slam dunk. Everyone pretty much wants that. But why tell everyone else to “screw themselves”?
What does that achieve?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132240
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Posted: 24 February 2020 at 9:39am | IP Logged | 3
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“My goals in life are to make as much money as I can to live the life I want, to help family and people I want to help, and to tell everyone else to screw themselves.”Ok...the first part is a slam dunk. Everyone pretty much wants that. But why tell everyone else to “screw themselves”? What does that achieve? •• If you achieve "the first part" you may better understand the second.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 30888
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Posted: 24 February 2020 at 9:50am | IP Logged | 4
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Medicare For All is highly unpopular with the people who don’t want Medicare For All.
********
It is mystifyingly amazing that, here in the pretty much rural area in which I live, a vast, VAST majority of the people that are on Medicaid don't want Medicare for all. And they're pretty much all on food stamps and/or WIC, as well. They think it's just some pinko commie program designed to turn us into another Russia. It's amazing how stupidly ignorant his base truly is.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132240
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Posted: 24 February 2020 at 9:52am | IP Logged | 5
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It is mystifyingly amazing that, here in the pretty much rural area in which I live, a vast, VAST majority of the people that are on Medicaid don't want Medicare for all. And they're pretty much all on food stamps and/or WIC, as well. They think it's just some pinko commie program designed to turn us into another Russia. It's amazing how stupidly ignorant his base truly is.•• "When I was on welfare, I never asked for help!"
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Peter Hicks Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1886
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Posted: 24 February 2020 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 6
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Can someone explain to this Canadian why so many Americans are against the concept of Medicare for all, but they are OK with Medicare for seniors over 65?
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Brian Floyd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 8349
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Posted: 24 February 2020 at 10:21am | IP Logged | 7
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Especially if it is Sanders. When Reagan set the record for oldest person elected President, he was 69 years and 349 days old, and that seemed pretty old at the time. Trump broke the record by being 70 years and 220 days old when he took office. But Sanders is 78, so he's already older than Reagan was when he ended his second term. With at least one heart attack under his belt, it's not unreasonable to speculate Sanders might not finish out his first term if elected.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++ That was exactly my thinking, Jason, but I didn't want to come right out and say it. Running for President when you've recently had a heart attack is not a good idea, regardless of age, because of the stress of the job.
And if Trump wins re-election, and Sanders is still alive, I hope he has the sense to not run again. Or that if he does, the voters have the sense to not care.
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David Allen Perrin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2009 Location: United States Posts: 3534
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Posted: 24 February 2020 at 10:38am | IP Logged | 8
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In my 55 years I’ve achieved the first part. And I certainly didn’t do it on my own. Nobody does.
So what is there to gain by telling everyone else to “screw themselves”?
Is it so impossible to see that if the family living around the block from me is healthy, happy and secure...that benefits me?
Edited by David Allen Perrin on 24 February 2020 at 10:38am
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 24 February 2020 at 11:32am | IP Logged | 9
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Peter H. - it's very simple, as these two parts show.
1) Medicare for all, as Medicare itself, or Social Security, or school lunches, or any other programs of this nature. The programs can be VERY confusing, and the phrase "Medicare for all" is as confusing as "Obamacare" is. It's really hard.
2) And a lot of Americans won't ask for clarification. Because they're dumb.
Too many people wait until a change is effected, and complain about it after the fact. Sadly, our political masters (once political servants) don't have to explain it and don't care to.
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Dave Kopperman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3135
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Posted: 24 February 2020 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 10
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I always look at it this way when the aging population in my town constantly votes against school budget proposals: you're driving down the price of your own home, since great schools are a primary reason people move to a new community. Ditto things like universal health care: if more people have access to health care, things like communicable diseases have less opportunity to spread. Nothing is perfect, but we can do better.
That having been said: I agree with Bernie* on a lot but personally don't like him. He's edging on being a demagogue with a condescending air, he's an isolationist, and has very little actual practical plans for how to achieve his goals or how to get his agenda through Congress - and when pressed on that last part in interviews, his answer is always that he's going to go out and hold rallies to pressure Congress.
I also agree with Bloomberg - he's strong on fighting gun violence and has been so for years, strong on climate, and also aligns with me on many other social policies. And while I sympathize with fears that a technocrat billionaire feels like no progress will be made on any of the financial disparity platforms, I wonder at the demonization of him from the idea of him being super-wealthy. That historically makes no sense, as FDR (the patron saint of American social programs) came from the upper class and was indeed labelled as a class traitor at the time. But he's definitely going to alienate the self-proclaimed progressive wing of the party and I fear that's going to have a similar dampening effect on the turnout to 2016.
Ultimately my preferred candidates are Warren (Bernie policies but with actual plans and a style I can get behind) and Buttigieg (a bit more of a centrist but along with Warren, blindingly smart and articulate). They're both fading, though. So it appears now to be between Mike and Bernie. Speaking as a New York Jew myself: this is fucking weird. And the breakdown there is the larger question NOT of who the Democratic Party is (one election is not solving that) but what's the best strategy to win? To wit: somehow win over more of the Obama voters and independents who went for Trump? Or fire up the 'progressive' base so much that they come out in overwhelming numbers?
Neither seems like a sure bet. I wish Biden had done better, as my larger strategy was to vote in the primaries for the candidate with the largest national support from African Americans. Why he's so bad at actually arguing the point of his reliably liberal voting record is a mystery.
*In 2016 I took one of the more well-vetted online tests to see where I aligned. Trump was 24% (mostly, I presume, because of his stated support for infrastructure spending), while Hillary was 97% and Bernie was 94%. Apparently that 3% difference was large enough to drive an SST through for a lot of voters.
Edited by Dave Kopperman on 24 February 2020 at 11:52am
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David Teller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 June 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 213
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Posted: 24 February 2020 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 11
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I’m not American, but I don’t understand how The democrats could goose a candidate likely to lose to Trump. Now is the time for an attractive, sensible broad church character. Not anyone seen as extremist and not anyone who is seen as too old.
78 is far far too old. Cognitive decline, physical strength - these all fade hugely in your mid seventies.
Just look at what happened in the UK when a left wing party went with its “principles” and chose an old extreme candidate.
It ended up screwing the UK hugely.
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David Teller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 June 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 213
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Posted: 24 February 2020 at 12:08pm | IP Logged | 12
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Btw the UKs health costs are far far lower than America’s. Socialism saves money in that scenario.
Socialist systems in social areas seems reasonable. Capitalist systems in capitalist areas also seems reasonable.
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