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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14812
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| Posted: 31 March 2021 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 1
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In most modern countries a self-appointed community guardian would have gone to prison from following someone and at very least provoking a confrontation, and he was advised to desist his activities and leave it to the real police while doing so.
——
Yes. As I said, the Florida prosecutors fucked up by pursuing a second degree murder case that would be hard to prove instead of charges that they could actually make the case for.
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 803
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| Posted: 31 March 2021 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 2
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"As I said, the Florida prosecutors fucked up by pursuing a second degree murder case that would be hard to prove instead of charges that they could actually make the case for."
I think the media is partly to blame for that. Since Martin died, anything less than a murder charge was not going to be acceptable in the court of public opinion, and would have been treated as evidence of systemic racism.
Still, prosecutors should have been smart enough to realize that an acquittal looks just as bad (or worse).
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4494
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| Posted: 31 March 2021 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 3
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I had to break for lunch. :^)
What you don't want, besides celebrity lawyers, are the extremists and absolutists of any stripe. How many cycles of hyper-emotional reactionism are needed to prove it's something that mainly feeds itself without resulting in lasting solutions or judgements that can stand? The George Zimmerman fiasco literally added "armed with a sidewalk" into Florida state law which combined with the equally fanciful stand your ground business they had going sent that state down to a banana republic level, the public at the mercy of political extremists' interpretations. Just how that state has handled elections and a pandemic has set some new lows effecting the entire country to some extent.
Crazy rules are as bad as no rules; anarchy is a lack of civilisation where you stumble on from event to event rarely the wiser and only learning something the hard way. With all the hard knocks lately the U.S. really ought to be one of the smartest nations. The citizenry sometimes is but too often doesn't want to know or just wants simplistic arguments where the goal is to stake out the most absolute slanted position yet where the buck never stops when it comes to taking blame. You have to face up to what doesn't work and has never worked eventually. Trials that are a circus of positional point scoring like a football game for viewers are phyric, the ball goes back and forth, referees step in on technicalities, and justice fails to prevail as often as not. Normalizing the dysfunction and examing personalized details that suit a narrative to the nth degree is exhausting and wasteful. These days keeping it simple (stupid) and getting on with reality is apaprently very difficult.
This man put his knee on this other man who died because of it, gavel bangs, sentence is pronouced. This armed man followed an unarmed man who eventually confronted him, the armed man shot the unarmed man. Next?
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 803
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| Posted: 31 March 2021 at 3:04pm | IP Logged | 4
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"This armed man followed an unarmed man who eventually confronted him, the armed man shot the unarmed man. Next?"
So it doesn't matter who confronted whom? I disagree.
If you want to say that Zimmerman was a racist because of the way he profiled Martin, fine. No argument there. Likewise, if you want to say that Zimmerman made a mistake when he decided to follow Martin (against the advice of police), that's fine too. I agree. This entire situation could have been avoided if Zimmerman had stayed in his car. But none of that makes Zimmerman a murderer.
How the confrontation transpired is essential to that determination. The narrative presented by Zimmerman is one in which he acted in self defense within the meaning of the laws of Florida.
Its fine to say that we don't believe Zimmerman's narrative. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion about that. But to convict Zimmerman you have to prove the narrative is false, and prosecutors literally had NO evidence.
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4720
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| Posted: 31 March 2021 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 5
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The way I remember it, Zimmerman was told by the police dispatcher NOT to pursue Martin and he didn't listen! He knew if there was trouble he was armed and prepared to use his weapon regardless of the fact that he was NOT law enforcement. Tragically, he reacted with very poor judgement and took a young life.
In an alternate universe, Martin would've had his own weapon and killed Zimmerman in self-defense. Wonder what the jury would've believed in THAT scenario?
-C! |
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Tim O Neill
Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10924
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| Posted: 01 April 2021 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 6
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The witness testimony is heart wrenching. It's traumatizing enough to see the video, but I honestly didn't even imagine what it was like for the people who were there.
Charles McMillan breaking down on the stand is especially difficult to watch. While the younger people were correctly telling the police that they were murdering Floyd, McMillan was pleading with Floyd to stop resisting. He knew it was a raw deal, but if he didn't resist, he would live. Little did he know at the time that it didn't matter which path Floyd chose.
I guess I identify with McMillan because he is in my age range, but the young people seeing this will have scars for some time. Donald Williams was the MMA guy we hear and see in so many videos - he knew he was watching a murder. But the one that is really difficult to fathom is Darnella Frazier, just a teenager - she apologizes to George Floyd at night for not doing more. This kid has this on her shoulders - and she would have been arrested/killed herself if she tried to intervene. How does a kid get over that?
Meanwhile, John Wickett is giving an uncomfortably empathetic and excruciatingly detailed analysis of the defense teams's path to victory. The election conspiracy theorist returns for his next big performance - putting George Floyd on trial.
I think it's a good time to remember that Derek Chauvin is the one on trial for murder. George Floyd is not on trial.
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 01 April 2021 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 7
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"Meanwhile, John Wickett is giving an uncomfortably empathetic and excruciatingly detailed analysis of the defense teams's path to victory. The election conspiracy theorist returns for his next big performance - putting George Floyd on trial."
Not the case. I've consistently said that Chauvin should be convicted, and that I believe he will be convicted.
People have asked questions about why certain evidence would be admissible, and I have answered those questions.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4494
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| Posted: 01 April 2021 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | 8
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I might not think much about how these trials are conducted in terms of parameters of what is relevant, but perhaps some good will come from those who do hear human eyewitness stories, but I cannot begin to imagine the impact or even damage to family members, it seems inhuman they are subjected to this amount of examining and re-examining and reliving in excruciating detail. I know I can't watch or hear 95% of this stuff.
Trayvon Martin was absolutely presumed guilty not just by his murderer but the justice system, it was completely appalling and ridiculous, a joke trial, even if not on a level of the earlier Emett Till one. Over one hundred and fifty years and I cannot begin to imagine how people live with this. It makes me sick hearing any group referred to as animals or the violent rhetoric and hate, and we should definitely not adopt it for all police either... but this Chauvin is definitely one of the most inhuman people from what I have seen and heard, with a record of prior incidents where nothing much happened to intervene!
I see the victims, even some witnesses, being presumed guilty in the U.S. trials and cannot understand. If following someone with a deadly offensive weapon over a period of time based on their skin color, being warned not to, but having no eye witnesses can still be presumed innocent, while Martin and Floyd and so many others have their characters and friends and families characters dragged into the mud... something is just way out of whack. Not normal, and not serving justice.
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 01 April 2021 at 2:39pm
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3135
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| Posted: 01 April 2021 at 2:57pm | IP Logged | 9
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The fact that this fucker is named "Chauvin" is proof either that there is a God and they have a sick sense of humor, or that we're all in the Matrix and someone is dabbling in poetic aptness.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14812
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| Posted: 01 April 2021 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | 10
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I feel like Rebecca is having a conversation with someone, but not anybody in this thread.
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Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3655
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| Posted: 01 April 2021 at 3:53pm | IP Logged | 11
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Rebecca,
You do understand that in the United States a trial is for the benefit of the accused - the defendant - NOT the victim or any witness(es)? The accused is presumed INNOCENT until proven guilty in a fair trial with due process of law.
Marc
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Rebecca Jansen
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| Posted: 01 April 2021 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 12
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I'm commenting on the slant where all a perpetrator has to do is throw enough dirt and confusion around at the expense of their victim(s) and people have to presume they may be innocent, because they allow that in the U.S. court system. I'm pretty sure that in other places a lot of such stuff is objected to and not admissable. It seems like what's not admissable in U.S. cases I've followed is much more in favor of the accused/perpetrator. Victims get revictimized by the system to such a degree I really don't understand the logic to it.
So Floyd was a drug user who resisted arrest and had health issues? One of those three should not be included as having any bearing (drug use) and the other is of negligable relavence (health) compared to anyone with aknee on their neck for that length of time is perfect health and with no drugs would have died from it. Twisting narratives and perspectives might be fine for a drama tv show or Judge Judy but in the reality of a court of law I do not see it's place. It seems like some people can shoot (or choke) certain people on 5th Ave. in Manhattan in the middle of the day and if they are in a certain class or have money they get all the advantage to twist, rewrite, blame and defame.
I feel that all extremes take issue with me yet none of them are being served well by the current system. News has been replaced largely by infotainment and the justice system is riddled with political or class actors and name making lawyers and judges.
Is what I say laughable, or is the current reality what is laughable (if you aren't crying that is).
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