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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 July 2020 at 5:10am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Slavery wasn't a US institution. We didn't invent it. We ENDED it.

••

"Yes, we were gang-raping that girl, but we STOPPED!"

There are some things it is really not appropriate to be PROUD of. We "ended" slavery, but we had to fight a bloody war over it, and its stain still covers this country.

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James Woodcock
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Posted: 27 July 2020 at 5:25am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Anyone who thinks slavery has ended is deluded.
& we accept/ignore it.
The U.K. has a gangMasters law - lots of people employed by those
are really slaves.

The World Cup stadiums in Qatar have all sorts of issues with slavery -
people’s passports being taken from them, forced housing in squalor.

& yet those games will be played in those stadia.

Slavery is rife, & the majority of us all buy something that contributes to
it - either knowingly or unknowingly.
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 27 July 2020 at 9:42am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

There are some things it is really not appropriate to be PROUD of. We "ended" slavery, but we had to fight a bloody war over it, and its stain still covers this country.

The Europeans brought it to North America.  The British mandated it for our colonies.  It was hundreds of years established in what would become the US.  Your analogy doesn't work.  Our forefathers LONG fought to be free of slavery.  They fought TWO wars in an effort to move beyond the institution.  I'd argue that our Independence and then the Civil War were both fought in large part to end slavery.

And when I say ended slavery, I'm talking about in the US.  I realize slavery has gone on since then.  Which only furthers my point.  


Edited by Andy Mokler on 27 July 2020 at 9:44am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 July 2020 at 9:47am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Where are you getting this “history”? The Founders had a chance to abolish slavery, but to placate the southern colonies they opted not to. No part of the actual rebellion was about eliminating slavery. The British certainly were not “forcing” it on anybody.
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Steven Myers
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Posted: 27 July 2020 at 10:18am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I've stated where the "line" is for me. Actively fighting in a treasonous war to maintain slavery should get you nothing. The Founders were complex people, and they made mistakes, but at least they were trying to make things better. And you have to look at things compared to the times that people lived. Someone during the colonial period thinking segregation could solve the slavery issue is different than those who espoused the feeling in the civil rights era. Or those who still think it would work today.

And, of course, Columbus goes because his accomplishments are based on myth.
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Paul Kimball
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Posted: 27 July 2020 at 1:26pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Shouldn't the point be that we rectified all of that? Slavery wasn't a US
institution. We didn't invent it. We ENDED it.
++++++++

That would be an alt history I wish was true, that the founding fathers said no
slavery here, then we fought to free slaves in other countries, that would be
awesome
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 27 July 2020 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Where are you getting this “history”? The Founders had a chance to abolish slavery, but to placate the southern colonies they opted not to. No part of the actual rebellion was about eliminating slavery. The British certainly were not “forcing” it on anybody.

And why did they placate those Southern states?  Because they needed all 13 colonies united if they were to stand a chance against England in a war.

Jefferson twice tried to emancipate the slaves but King George would not allow it.
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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 27 July 2020 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Andy,

You say our "forefathers" long fought to be FREE of slavery.  Well, there were "forefathers" from the southern states, too; why didn't they abolish slavery from the start of the newly formed union?

Marc


Edited by Marc Baptiste on 27 July 2020 at 8:17pm
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 27 July 2020 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Why do you ask?  It's true, not every forefather was on board with abolishing slavery.  Overnight or over time.  It was long a point of contention and led to the Civil War.  

There were political concessions to be made to even make this a country.  But in the Declaration they laid the groundwork that would eventually allow and lead to the emancipation of the slaves.  Jefferson tried to do it from the beginning but had to concede until a later time.

That's the whole point of how they set things up.  They knew they weren't perfect and that there was a lot that would likely change over time.  Things they could foresee and things they likely didn't imagine.  But they are the ones that formed the document that allowed future generations to make changes.  


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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 July 2020 at 6:27am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Time once again to recommend THE DISCOVERERS by Daniel J. Boorstin. A very thick book that, I promise, you will find yourself wishing was longer when you turn to the last page.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 28 July 2020 at 6:57am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

And yet, the o-so-noble Jefferson didn't free his own slaves until after his death. That's rank hypocrisy at the very least, don't you think?

If our founders were all so convinced that slavery was morally repugnant, winning the Revolutionary War should have ended the practice. It didn't. 

As noted, the northern states NEEDED the south to go along... and their price was allowing slavery to continue. We fought a war BECAUSE the south demanded not only the perpetuation of slavery but also its expansion into new states. It wasn't the sacred Declaration that pushed the north to fight this practice, either, but a movement of dedicated abolitionists who had an actual moral compass.

So don't suggest that our nation does not have an enormous sin for which it has not atoned, Andy. The fact that slavery was ended hardly did much to improve the lives of former slaves and their descendants even 150 years later. 

Even though the framework of our nation allowed for its evolution, it strikes me as highly doubtful that the founders expected slavery to die on its own, after they had expressly permitted it to continue.


Edited by Andrew Bitner on 28 July 2020 at 7:04am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 July 2020 at 7:20am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

If our founders were all so convinced that slavery was morally repugnant, winning the Revolutionary War should have ended the practice. It didn't.

••

The problem is ALL the Founders were not anti-slavery.

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