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Steven Brake
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Posted: 28 November 2020 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

In The Fantastic Four #1, Ben initially refused to fly the rocket, until Sue said that if they didn't, the commies would beat them - and called Ben a coward. Angry, Ben agreed to act as pilot.

In FF#236 and What If#36, this was retconned to remove the reference to communism (as far as I'm aware, this was original to JB? If the retcon had already been made, happy to be corrected), but Sue still accuses Ben of cowardice, and he agrees to pilot the rocket.

Throughout the FF's history, Ben has blamed Reed for his condition, and Reed has felt no less guilty. But has Ben ever expressed any anger towards Sue? And should he have? Can Sue be held in any way responsible for what happened to Ben?


Edited by Steven Brake on 28 November 2020 at 1:48pm
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 28 November 2020 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Ben only has one person to blame. Himself. He was a grown man that
was capable of making his own decisions. He could've said "no" but he
let his ego get the best of him. Just like Marty McFly in the BTTF
movies. A coward? Not mama Grimm's blue-eyed baby boy.
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 28 November 2020 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

@Brian:

I agree that Ben isn't blameless, but that isn't to say that Reed and Sue aren't to blame, or bear at least some degree of blame for what happened to him, and, as noted in my OP, I don't think Sue's ever been held to account in the same way that Reed repeatedly has.


Edited by Steven Brake on 28 November 2020 at 4:12pm
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 28 November 2020 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Sue was not a scientist.  She essentially was taking Reed's word/expertise that it was safe enough to be worth taking the risk.  Reed is the one who should have known better.  So to me it's understandable that Ben blames Reed. 

And I'd definitely disagree with Brian's suggestion that Ben only has himself to blame.  Reed either deliberately downplayed the risks, or was negligent in not being fully aware of them.  And he coerced his best friend into taking that risk.  Yeah, we can argue that Ben shouldn't have let Reed and Sue goad him into doing something he felt was unsafe, but Reed should have known better.  Ben's not a scientist either, and despite what he said he probably also was to some degree relying on Reed's opinion that it was safe enough, despite his own misgivings.

BTW, Sue's reference to "commies" was rewritten into "Do you want some foreign power to beat America to the moon?" by Roy Thomas in his retelling of the origin in FF #126. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 November 2020 at 8:10am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

BTW, Sue's reference to "commies" was rewritten into "Do you want some foreign power to beat America to the moon?" by Roy Thomas in his retelling of the origin in FF #126.

••

Playing to a misconception that had been installed more or less permanently in FF lore. In FF 1 they are headed for the STARS, not the Moon. It's in FF 13 that they take a ride to the Moon.

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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 29 November 2020 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Huh. That's interesting. Let's play Cause and Effect.

The ultimate result is that Ben Grimm became the Thing.
Why? The same reason the others changed; exposure (overexposure?) to cosmic rays*.
Why? Insufficient shielding on Reed Richards' rocket. One tick for Reed Richards. One tick for environmental conditions.**
Why was Ben in the rocket? He was flying it. COROLLARY: Reed would not have risked anyone's life if he could avoid it. It was necessary to have at least one more man. It makes perfect sense that his best friend, and the best pilot he knew would be the one he'd ask. Another tick for Reed. But the test pilot and one time NCAA running champ at ESU probably wasn't going to turn that opportunity down. One tick for Ben.
Why was Ben flying it? As noted, he was the most talented pilot Reed knew. One tick for Ben.
What was the purported reason... the discussion From FF#1: 

BEN: "You know we haven't done enough research on the effects of cosmic rays! They might kill us all in outer space!"

SUE: "Ben, we've got to take that chance... unless we want the commies to beat us to it! I - I never thought that YOU would be a coward!"

BEN: "A COWARD!! Nobody calls ME a coward! Get the ship! I'll fly her no matter WHAT happens!"

Ben is not saying "No"... he's saying "Not yet." And it turns out that he was right.
Enter the best friend's beautiful young girlfriend who undoubtedly has affection for Ben. She plays the Commie card (to the two men who just fought in WWII) and the ego gut-punch challenge. NOBODY calls Ben Grimm a coward!

The REAL question is - why did they have to go immediately? The only comment in that story is that "Conditions are perfect tonight!" But surely a clear night would come around again when Earth is in the right position. 

"Ben was right! We should have waited! Should have gotten heavier shielding!"

And we see that the true impetus of launching, before the ship was truly ready, really was Reed Richards. Oh, he was influenced by his little girlie girlfriend - as was Ben - but there were other factors. And Ben was RIGHT: he might have saved himself (and makes me wonder who was the smarter between himself and Reed...)

Anything that happened after he transformed stands alone, but seems to have Reed's fault as well.

*Or eating lunch just afterwards at Tomorrowland in DisneyWorld...

**Discussion: why would Reed Richards have stinted on shielding? Would he have launched a substandard rocket TO THE STARS? After all, there are no gas stations out there... Did a young teenage girl REALLY have that big an influence on him?


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Jason K Fulton
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Posted: 29 November 2020 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Reminder that we have seen a variation of "What if they had waited" before - in WHAT IF #36:


And now re-reading this issue has made me wonder what some of the FF's adventures would have looked like if they'd been the unpowered Richards Rocket Group, instead. What changes in the Galactus encounter?
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 29 November 2020 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Ben is clearly carrying a torch for Sue in that first issue, and I always read into it the implication that his reaction to being called a coward by her was less about being Marty McFly and more about saving face in front of and trying to impress the woman he had a crush on.

From that perspective, blaming Sue would require Ben to admit that he was goaded into piloting the rocket because he was infatuated with his best friend's fiancée, and I think he'd rather move on from that and avoid dredging up all those old feelings.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 29 November 2020 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

 JB wrote:
Playing to a misconception that had been installed more or less permanently in FF lore. In FF 1 they are headed for the STARS, not the Moon.

And of course as you know, when Lee and Kirby plotted the story they apparently discussed it as being a trip to Mars.  Then when Stan typed up the synopsis afterwards, he thought better of that idea because "by the time the mag goes on sale, the Russians may have already MADE a flight to Mars."  So it was changed to "the stars."

Another interesting thing I'd forgotten is that in Stan's synopsis it is "the authorities" who voice concerns about the potential dangers of cosmic rays, rather than Ben.  And Sue "coaxes" Ben into taking the job rather than goading him with talk of cowardice (Stan notes that Ben has fallen for Sue).   
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 29 November 2020 at 6:19pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Well, Stan Lee couldn't have possibly known he'd be architecting the blueprint for a book that would last generations into the future. Also, it would be weird for Ben to hold a simmering grudge against Sue. Feminists might say "why not? Bring it on". But it would still be weird. 
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 30 November 2020 at 7:31am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Jason: "What changes in the Galactus encounter?"

"Heya Big Brain - we beat a lotta bad guys, but I ain't sure we can even get this big bozo's attention!"

"I fear you're correct, Ben. It seems we need to summon... the Avengers!"

Michael R. - I don't believe I saw that crush for Sue by Ben. And I don't quite see a Marty-McFly-ish attitude as much as a responsibility to Reed. He gave his word, undoubtedly; and he, Reed, and Sue were the Three Musketeers, sort of. 

However, had it been Johnny mocking him instead - I think Ben would've still accepted the responsibility against the commies. Not to say that he doesn't have some affection for Sue, but I'm not sure I saw that much.

As for Stan's synopsis - never read it. There're only so many complementary sources one can read, and I wouldn't know for sure that Stan might have remembered it differently after the published plot.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 30 November 2020 at 7:45am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Michael R. - I don't believe I saw that crush for Sue by Ben.

-----

I mean, I guess Ben thinking Sue should love him instead of Reed could have been purely an academic exercise. It's like, "Hey, I made this list of pros and cons about me and Reed, and according to this, you should be with me instead."
 


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