Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 9 Next >>
Topic: Hardest superhero to write (hold the reality, please) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15778
Posted: 11 April 2021 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I always knew Denny was smart as a whip.

As for Captain America being the hardest to write: I'd have to disagree. To my mind, Captain America works in almost whichever milieu you put him.

America is going great? Here's the guy who embodies how it works.

America not going so great? Here's the guy who embodies how it should work.

Great character whose fixed points offer great flexibility.
Back to Top profile | search
 
James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7605
Posted: 12 April 2021 at 12:39am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I have never had an issue with the Hulk not killing people.

As a kid, I did have an issue with the A-Team’s ability to shoot at
anything with machine guns & there be a point of showing everyone
having survived - crawling out of cars etc.

I could not take that on a number of levels, including promoting the
belief in kids that machine guns destroy everything around a person
except the person.

But then I am pathologically against gun ownership
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Daniel Gillotte
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2584
Posted: 12 April 2021 at 9:06am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I think comics have always been somewhat pathologically "in the shadow" of "real" literature and art and movies and tv and desperate to get recognition (and I reckon the money that comes with) getting in TV and Film. Counter that with the phenomenon that is Harry Potter. I imagine that JK Rowling was cool as a cucumber in every pitch meeting as executives from movie studios were RAVENOUS to get her property. Therefore, her properties are treated with the utmost respect and "accuracy" whenever translated. 
If Rowling has been desperate like comics we WOULD have gotten Harry Potter and the Bitchin' Surfboard or something instead.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132234
Posted: 12 April 2021 at 9:42am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

When they began, circa 1934, what we think of as the “traditional” half tab format slipped onto the rack alongside TIME and NEWSWEEK and a score of other magazines that cost 10¢. There was no stigma to the format, and they played to a wide range of audiences.

Unfortunately, the cost of producing magazines started to rise, and the publishers of comics made a nearly fatal decision. Driven by their own perceptions of what they produced as trashy, disposable material, they decided to cling to that ten cent cover price while the cost of other magazines went up.

The result was a kind of ghettoizing of comics. By staying at the same price, they became steadily less profitable to the vendors. And, to make matters worst, holding that cover price eventually compelled the publishers to start shrinking the package. What had begun as 64 pAges for a dime was, by the time I started buying, 32 pages, still for a dime.

Comics were not only less profitable, they were physically flimsy. Distribution across the country began to be seen as something not even worth the effort. Many bundles didn’t even leave the warehouse.

And then, finally, the cover price had to go up. And even with that the publishers looked for ways to keep the cost down. They were almost embarrassed to charge what other magazines charged. (Comics were not even thought of as magazines. They were more like pamphlets.) When I started reading Marvel comics the editorial content was around 24 pages. Looking for ways to generate revenue without raising prices, the companies sold more pages as ads. When I started working at Marvel the editorial content was down to 18 pages, and shrank almost at once to 17.

What had begun as a robust, profitable enterprise had become a mere shadow of itself, and public contempt for the form had grown to the point that working in comics was looked upon by some as half a step above prostitution.

And we weren’t even expensive prostitutes!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Jim Burdo
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 April 2020
Location: United States
Posts: 347
Posted: 12 April 2021 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

IIRC, Greg Pak explained that Banner's genius was able to calculate ways the Hulk could destroy things without killing anyone and subconsciously manipulate the Hulk into doing so.  
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 1463
Posted: 12 April 2021 at 10:59am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

If Rowling has been desperate like comics we WOULD have gotten Harry Potter and the Bitchin' Surfboard or something instead

Heh.

Rowling was actually in a pretty desperate position when she wrote Harry Potter.

But she was also her creator and very aware of the value an effort that were behind her creation. I can imagine her defending her "baby" harder than anyone.

If you were a studio negotiating for a comic book property (before the current boom) you'd get some random executive from a media conglomerate that didn't even know what the comic book was on the other side of the table instead.

That's one of the main differences IMHO.


What had begun as a robust, profitable enterprise had become a mere shadow of itself, and public contempt for the form had grown to the point that working in comics was looked upon by some as half a step above prostitution

That's amazing how the perception of a whole form can shift like that just by some bad business and distribution decisions.

And as a consequence of not respecting creators as well, of course. Those artists working on newspaper strips had a much better hand dealt to them, to cite a very similar example.

While Siegel & Shuster, Simon & Kirby, etc. etc. could barely afford to pay the rent and of course had absolutely no piece on their creations, Alex Raymond, Milton Caniff or Hal Foster were handsomely rewarded and even treated like quasi- rock stars according to some accounts.


IIRC, Greg Pak explained that Banner's genius was able to calculate ways the Hulk could destroy things without killing anyone and subconsciously manipulate the Hulk into doing so.  

As far as these kind of "explanations" go, it's as good as any.







Edited by Rodrigo castellanos on 12 April 2021 at 11:09am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3655
Posted: 12 April 2021 at 11:10am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

JB,

Did magazines (e.g, TIME, NEWSWEEK, etc.) really ever rise in price anywhere NEAR as high as comic books - relatively speaking.  I mean wouldn't the price of a TIME magazine be something like 24.99?

Marc
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4496
Posted: 12 April 2021 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Further to JB's description if you go back before what we call the classic comic book format there were nice quality collections of newspaper strips in card stock covers with prices well above a dime. Somehow even with great original talent like Sheldon Mayer and C.C.Beck, Siegel & Shuster and Lou Fine, comic books never had the respect the newspaper comics somehow always got, even the poorer ones. I remember in the late '70s multiple collections of Garfield being millions sold best sellers, and I'm sure Pogo and Peanuts were before that. So those type of books seemed to have never gone away and continued to sell while comic books were somehow stuck in the ghetto of cheap and disposable.

I know something about the whole J.K. Rowling/Potter phenomenon... she did things the way you aren't supposed to (and got away with it claiming ignorance as a newbie), she sent manuscripts off to multiple publishers and got at least two into a bidding war against each other. Having won their prize and paid a fair bit in the process the company was quite invested in backing and promoting to the hilt. She must be a good writer in that there was enough interest in overlooking the simultaneous submission that can often get the door closed on someone who breaks that 'rule', and that the kids who read these stories really liked them. I might see them as a bit unoriginal or (going by just the movies) find the logic somewhat lacking, but it has opened the door to reading and other creations which is good. Regular text publishers do treat creators who sell copies like royalty, period, not always the case in the past in comic books sadly.

For a lot of the 20th century comic books ranked as the bottom rung for writing and illustration. There were attempts to change it with higher quality priced formats and aiming older like E.C., but the distribution was always so haphazard! Having a cheap format and young audience often did not make comics of interest to very many advertisers (big money products like cars or even most grocery items or tobacco found their consumers elsewhere). I can totally understand the appeal for publishers of the non-returnable and more audience reactive direct market. It may have both killed and saved the humble comic book.

But generally comics are visual... American Splendour with Harvey Picar talking drawn by Gary Dumm is never going to be the model to reach a wide audience. Superheroes and cute animals are very very visual. Science fiction if it's visual will work, but Ringworld or The Foundation Asimov books... probably not. I always thought Anne McCaffery's dragonriders could go well in an Epic magazine or quality album format though, and Trina did some nice adaptations of Tanith Lee, plus Byron Priess and Star-Reach, Andromeda etc. tried.

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 12 April 2021 at 11:16am
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
Posted: 12 April 2021 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

"As far as these kind of "explanations" go, it's as good as any."

It was only necessary because certain comics writers -- or maybe just one, I think it was Bendis -- said that they always assumed that the Hulk had accidentally killed people in the mainstream Marvel Universe. Millar never wrote the mainstream Hulk and Bendis did (I presume the Hulk didn't kill anyone when Bendis wrote him in a now-canceled Avengers series -- I would've heard about it for sure.)

Perhaps ironically, the only time that the Hulk killed people in the pages of THE INCREDIBLE HULK was when JB was the writer -- and that Hulk was a (seemingly) mindless beast that had been separated from Banner. 

Since that wasn't either the "more hostile version of Ben Grimm" personality of the Hulk circa 1963, or the "Puny humans! Hulk smash!" version from the late '60s through the early '80s, it doesn't count. 

And here's what really bugs me about Millar. He can write "on model" when he wants to. I liked the stories he wrote for the comic that was based on SUPERMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES. I liked the one issue of JLA that he wrote. I really liked SUPERMAN: RED SON too -- yes, it was an Elseworlds story, but there wasn't anything in it that had Millar's usual "look how shocking I am!" problem. Even his WOLVERINE storyline was fine -- Logan's a killer anyway so sending him on a mind-control killing spree is no big deal.

Everything else he's written, at least for Marvel, is annoying at best.  


Edited by Adam Schulman on 12 April 2021 at 1:23pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 1463
Posted: 12 April 2021 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

It was only necessary because certain comics writers -- or maybe just one, I think it was Bendis -- said that they always assumed that the Hulk had accidentally killed people in the mainstream Marvel Universe. 

My misconception as well. But clearly this has elicited at least *some* confusion even in the professional writers.

The recent Hulk movies are about as close as a "mainstream version" we get these days and I don't have them completely fresh in my mind but I remember them heavily implying that he killed people. Or at least that when the Hulk came out people died, to phrase it more elegantly.

Which also gives Banner's suffering and torment much more weight and is good for drama. The Ruffalo "Avengers" version seems to go less into this territory, though.


... but there wasn't anything in it that had Millar's usual "look how shocking I am!" problem.

I also enjoyed his Superman stories but then he found his niche with "shocking superheroes" in The Authority, Ultimates, etc.

I heavily dislike that style, he's the poster boy for taking all the wrong lessons from "grim & gritty" and doesn't even have the excuse of parody that somehow saves stuff like "The Boys" for me.

But him going independent with mainly ersatz versions of shocking superheroes has been proven to be a smart business model for him I have to admit. And at least he's left the classic characters alone.


Back to Top profile | search
 
Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
Posted: 12 April 2021 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I much preferred Warren Ellis writing THE AUTHORITY (and STORMWATCH).

THE BOYS is a case where the TV adaptation is superior to the original material. (I wish Garth Ennis would stick to war stories and things like PREACHER.)
Back to Top profile | search
 
Marc M. Woolman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 April 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 2096
Posted: 12 April 2021 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Marvel's Incredible Hulk movie does not have the Hulk killing anybody.
The idea that the Hulk kills people during his comic book rampages is stupid. When Thor or Iron Man get knocked through a building, by the Juggernaut, do people assume that action killed bystanders?

The moment the Hulk deliberately kills an innocent victim, Bruce Banner is no longer a good person or a sympathetic character. If he knows the Hulk is a killer and he (Banner) doesn't immediately surrender himself to authorities or end his own life, he becomes a villain. It's a shame that Greg Pak had to write a story explaining that Hulk doesn't kill innocent bystanders, but Pak did a decent job of it and it is offical canon that the Hulk does not kill innocent bystanders.
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 9 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login