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Jim Burdo Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2020 Location: United States Posts: 347
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Posted: 07 September 2021 at 3:22am | IP Logged | 1
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There are conflicting reports over whether Thunderbird has been resurrected on the new mutant home of Krakoa.
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4824
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Posted: 07 September 2021 at 4:56am | IP Logged | 2
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Comic book deaths were still pretty uncommon at the time Jean Grey died. You have a pretty short list of major Marvel characters (other than villains) who had died off through the early 1980s -
Junior Juniper (1963) Charles Xavier (1968 - revealed alive in 1970) Una (1969) George Stacy (1970) Janice Cord (1970) Lady Dorma (1971) Odin (1972 - resurrected shortly thereafter in 1972) Gwen Stacy (1973 - clone introduced in 1975) Ancient One (1973 - revealed to exist as a cosmic entity in 1973) Swordsman (1974 - body revived by the Cotati in 1974) Thunderbird (1975) Jean Grey (1980 - revealed alive in 1988) Glen Talbot (1981) Elektra (1982 - resurrected in 1983) Captain Mar-Vell (1982)
The death of a major character was still pretty rare in 1980, and the only one that really compare was Gwen Stacy. Gwen's death (along with Norman Osborn's) was probably the most shocking and controversial. But it, along with Charles Xavier's "fake" death earlier, set the tone for character resurrections.
Jean's death was one of the first of a major active hero (Charles Xavier was the first, but the Swordsman was really a B-list villain turned hero and Thunderbird wasn't really that established) and the biggest death until they decided to kill of Mar-Vell a couple of years later (which thankfully has stuck).
When Elektra was brought back less than a year after her death I think the idea of deaths being permanent was pretty much out the window, and now what major character hasn't been killed and resurrected at some point?
Edited by Robert Bradley on 07 September 2021 at 8:52pm
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Darren Ashmore Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 947
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Posted: 07 September 2021 at 5:47am | IP Logged | 3
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It's interesting to speculate how the X-Men title and the industry in general would have turned out if Wolverine had been killed off instead of Thunderbird.
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Greg McPhee Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 5065
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Posted: 07 September 2021 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 4
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It does seem that Wein, Cockrum and Claremont had it in for our little Canadian hero until JB stepped in.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15777
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Posted: 07 September 2021 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 5
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Brevoort's blog is comprehensive. Wow.
From my perspective, I started collecting Marvel comics with a vengeance in late 85, at which point Marvel was both in the process of bringing her back and giving birth to a different Phoenix, so I never felt a direct impact from Jean dying.
The story (I hesitate to say 'event' because it has different connotations) certainly influenced what came after. Killing Jean was obviously an organic and unplanned affair, though it seems the impact unfortunately spurred creators later on down the road into offing characters as a cynical ploy to attract attention to a title. I'm thinking of A Death in the Family, the Death of Superman and so on.
I'm curious as to whether DC would have got rid of Supergirl in quite the same manner they did in Crisis if it was not for the Death of Phoenix half a decade earlier.
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Colin Ian Campbell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2015 Location: England Posts: 177
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Posted: 07 September 2021 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 6
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Junior Jupiter (1963) *** I think you mean Junior Juniper.
Glen Talbot (1981) *** Glenn Talbot briefly returned from the afterlife in Incredible Hulks [sic] #619-620 (2011)
Elektra (1982 - resurrected in 1983) *** I think Miller's resurrections of Elektra in DD #190 and Elektra Lives Again were intentionally ambiguous. When Marvel reneged on what they had promised him and let other writers use her, Miller said she was still dead.
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4824
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Posted: 07 September 2021 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 7
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I think you mean Junior Juniper.
That I did!
Glenn Talbot briefly returned from the afterlife in Incredible Hulks [sic] #619-620 (2011)
That was a Life Model Decoy, so Talbot has remained dead.
I think Miller's resurrections of Elektra in DD #190 and Elektra Lives Again were intentionally ambiguous. When Marvel reneged on what they had promised him and let other writers use her, Miller said she was still dead.
He must not have been paying attention to the Gerber/Marvel Howard the Duck situation.
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4548
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Posted: 07 September 2021 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | 8
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Robert, you omitted a few early Marvel superhero deaths: Bucky Barnes (1963, though the event was retconned to have happened in 1944) The original Human Torch (1966) Toro (1969) I believe all of the above have been resurrected at some point post-1985, right?
and in terms of deaths of supporting characters, there also was: Ben Parker (1962) Franklin Storm (1964) These latter two would fit into the category of "created to be killed" rather than the killing off of established characters.
I agree that Jean's death did open the floodgates of character deaths... for the obvious reason that fans were becoming the dominant share of the market, and X-Men #137 demonstrated that fans would buy up multiple copies of any issue with a major character death.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 07 September 2021 at 6:38pm
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Steven Myers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5624
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Posted: 07 September 2021 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | 9
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There are some cases where characters "really died" for a considerable amount of time, but the original writers said they had a way to bring them back written into the original story. Iron Fist, Barry Allen, and Professor X come to mind.
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4824
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Posted: 07 September 2021 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 10
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Jason - I was thinking characters who appeared regularly and then were killed off. Bucky was killed in a flashback and Jim Hammond and Toro were brought back for single issues. Most readers probably had no attachment to the WWII characters by that point in time.
edit - They also did the same with Red Raven (single appearance), Marvel Boy (single appearance) and Miss America (flashback)
Edited by Robert Bradley on 07 September 2021 at 8:54pm
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6094
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Posted: 07 September 2021 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | 11
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Just re-read the Len Wein interview from 1981 in the "X-Men Companion."
He says two things that establish the predestined ending of Thunderbird. One, he states unhesitatingly, that Thunderbird was created to die "from the very beginning" to show to the reader that, "Well, this was a real group!" His final quote: "Thunderbird was put in there as a throwaway, meant to surprise you."
Second, he explains that issues 94 and 95 were finished plotting and 94 was drawn before Chris came on board. They were originally the contents of GSX#2, but got split into two issues when the decision was made to go back to the regular series.
So he was a kind of extension of the Uncle Ben model-- a character designed to die for the effect his death would have on the characters who were meant to carry on the series.
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4496
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Posted: 07 September 2021 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | 12
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I was going to mention Giant-Sized #2 but didn't know if it would have any bearing.
Excellent point about Thunderbird as an Uncle Ben type of figure!
So he, or someone, was a planned death in the book, like Shooter's Ferro Lad back in the go-go-checks days. Phoenix wasn't planned to die at all. I thought, and think, it was a good call though she should die, but because it did work so well and had real impact with readers, it seemed to inspire the desire to make 'history' by doing the same thing again, and again, and again. They wore it (and me) out with all the superheroines dying or being radically changed and maimed! I think it was that fallout from Phoenix (and Elektra) that mostly targeted heroines with darker stories, that unbalanced superhero comics for awhile to some degree.
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