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Topic: What is appropriation, & is it always wrong? Post ReplyPost New Topic
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 18 October 2021 at 4:01am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

There’s been a lot about cultural appropriation in recent years - I’ve
seen stories related to (& this is not an exclusive list)
A marvel editor pretending to be a Japanese writer to get work
Non-black women pretending to be black (see JB’s thread about black
fishing)
Samuel Jackson complaining that a British black actor should not play
the part of an American black character
A college girl being lambasted for attending a prom in a kimono
Non-gay actors playing gay characters
Non-trans actors playing trans characters

& just today, an Italian award winning female author being revealed as
three male authors.

So, my question.
Are all these instances the same? Do they all cause offence? Should
they all cause offence? Do they carry the same weight?

Personally, I think we are moving into a world where people are losing
the ability to understand or accept granularity in things - everything is
as big as everything else.

For me, there are things in that list above that a feel people are making
mountains out of molehills, & should not be seen as an issue (this
might be my ignorance, but it may not be) & there are things that I think
absolutely should be seen as an issue.

So, what do people think? Are they all the same? Does
allowing/accepting any of the above represent a thin edge of a wedge
that leads to the rest & therefore should not be accepted? Or are there
things on that list, or similar things, where people are just fighting for
the sake of fighting g?
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 18 October 2021 at 4:22am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I'm wary of the phrase "cultural appropriation". Though I understand that the origin is to call out and prevent exploitation, it's being used very widely to include simple exchanges of cultural traits. Example: Western people doing Yoga. Surely the practice, if it's good for people, should be available to practice for all mankind? This is how humanity has evolved. 

Pretending to be something you're not, though - like the Marvel writer pretending to be Japanese - to gain an advantage, is surely not OK. It's a lie, a falsehood.

But when it comes to acting, we're walking a very thin line. Why is it wrong for a straight actor to play a gay character? It's called ACTING. You're supposed to see the character, not the actor. British actors play American characters all the time. Is that wrong? No, I say, as long as you believe the character. 
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 18 October 2021 at 4:32am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

The writer thing is an interesting one for me.

How many Mills and Boone writers were male? Is it that
there is a difference between a pen name and creating a
whole backstory/identity? but then again, might that just
be an issue due to modern access?

What about things like Richard Bachman? He was designed to
hide, I'm not sure why, but that is another example of the
'pretending to be something/someone you aren't). Is it the
practice in general? Something else?
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 18 October 2021 at 7:46am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

It's a complex and nuanced topic. Critics will take the weakest examples or the misapplication of the term to discount the whole idea.

I think asking whether this or that is an example of cultural appropriation is a colossal waste of time. The question that needs to be asked is whether you are respecting a culture you are borrowing elements from and whether the culture you are borrowing from is respected in general. (Also how much of the borrowing of a culture is a byproduct of colonization, but that a whole other discussion.)


 QUOTE:
Though I understand that the origin is to call out and prevent exploitation, it's being used very widely to include simple exchanges of cultural traits. Example: Western people doing Yoga. Surely the practice, if it's good for people, should be available to practice for all mankind? This is how humanity has evolved.

Here's an example. White people doing yoga is not an issue. But what does it mean when a trendy white-owned yoga studio sells merchandixe with "Namaste" on it to yoga students who don't fully understand the meaning of the term and the instructor actively avoids any mentions of the Eastern spirituality origins of yoga in order to be "inclusive" (i.e. not offend white Christians)? How should Hindus feel about white Americans profiting off the trappings of their culture while Indian-Americans are still made to feel like foreigners in their own country and being mocked with "Apu" growing up?

There's more than a simple exchange of cultural traits here.

Let's look at Elvis. Elvis acknowledged at the black artists that influenced his music, and he arguably made it possible for more people to be accepting of "black music". But what does it mean that he became a millionaire off of music inspired by black artists, while those same artists were struggling and subjected to segregation and discrimination?


 QUOTE:
A college girl being lambasted for attending a prom in a kimono

College girls generally don't attend prom. If you are referring to the story of the high school girl from Utah who wore a Chinese qipao to prom, I think it's less important to handwring about whether it's right or wrong to wear the dress or not and more important to understand why some Asian-Americans would be so angry about it.


 QUOTE:
Non-gay actors playing gay characters
Non-trans actors playing trans characters


I don't think these are really part of the same discussion. I will say that while I don't think only gay actors can play gay characters, there can be a lot of nuance that straight actors might miss when playing a gay character, so they should make an effort to cast LGB actors to play LGB roles. But requiring it would require a LGB actor to out themselves just to play a LGB role, which wouldn't be right.

As far as trans characters, there are limited opportunities to play trans roles, and it seems wrong to pass over trans actors for cis actors. But even more of an issue, having a cis man play a trans woman reinforces the idea that a trans woman is a "man pretending to be a woman" And the same goes for a cis woman playing a trans man.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 18 October 2021 at 9:37am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Good thought out responses . Thanks.

My thoughts match yours in that I agree that
often the nuance seems to get lost in the mix.
Even by me at times.

The college example is the one you were
referring to and clearly includes a few
mistakes, college I think having different
meanings in the US and UK, but the rest being
my error.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 18 October 2021 at 11:56am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

It used to be many seemingly male writers were women under pen names, James Tiptree Jr. for example was a favorite of mine in sf digest magazines, but so was James H. Schmitz who was male, and Anne Mccaffery who was female... did it really make any difference? Andre Norton was a bit of a shock to see in person though as she looked like a twin to my Grandmother, but a very good shock, there is no reason a good sf/f author couldn't look like my Gramdma! :^)

Many used initials too, C.L. Moore, D.H. Lawrence, e.e. cummings. A rose by any other name. But say your name is Baumgartner and you write as Yamamoto or Three Ravens... you'd really better have somebody with the name in your family tree there I would think, not sure even an anagram would pass plausibility.

As for actors or writing about another culture, it's a total risk... you manage to do it like Hugh Laurie on that House medical drama, or Pearl S. Buck writing about China, well done! It's in the eye and ear of the viewer. I have read absolute garbage purporting to be from the viewpoint of a minority that seemed very likely to be the product of someone at a desk in Toronto that never walked where their characters wre supposed to have, that's bad art, not that it can't be done. Gay actors have convincingly played straight characters for centuries too I'm sure!

If U.S. politician Elizabeth Warren is guilty of exaggerating her miniscule Native heritage for personal benefit among the uber-liberal it is one of those mole hills, but to entirely deny it isn't worth the trouble. It either makes you think a slight bit less of her or not, but those who howl for years on it and name-call? That's a worse 'sin' than the mote in the other person's eye. So it is definitely important to have persepctive and balance and not be an absolutist who has no slack, just one more jerk who gets off on judging and executing.

Meanwhile the house is on fire and bells are clanging while so many folks either don't want to know at all, or are in fisticuffs over if the right representative that approves of the proper celebrities followed the traditional procedure in breaking the alarm glass, and another felt it shouldn't have been set off yet at all and there is no such thing as fire. That's how the times often seem to me.

Two Jewish guys did some great comics about a blonde and blue-eyed Norse thunder god and I'm glad they did! Somewhere on Ygdrasil the all-tree they are blossoms forever, and maybe I can be a righteous gentile in a New Jerusalem?

It's impossible to not be in the cross-hairs of both extremes out hunting for enemies to destroy, I do know that.
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Mike Benson
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Posted: 18 October 2021 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Go too far down the rabbit hole and, at some point, it won't be acting. 
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