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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16448
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Posted: 23 August 2005 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | 1
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The only problem I have with Darren's theory is that there are clearly right and wrongs to drwaing anatomy, perspective, and other mechanics of artwork. I mean, there are artists that you know can draw very well, per se, but don't appeal to you, and then there are "artists" who draw badly. It's not just about how you feel about the work.
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Ethan Van Sciver Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 February 2005 Posts: 522
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Posted: 23 August 2005 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | 2
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Well, I disagree with Neal Adams. (wow.) Tracing photographs is practice time. And it's important to get the feel for reality that way, if that's how you want to go about learning to draw. (life drawing is also a good idea.) When it comes to actually drawing comics, it's time to use what you've learned, not trace people and draw costumes on them, getting paid for it and calling it your work.
There are rare exceptions. Lightboxing is A-ok for times when it's impractical to do otherwise. (Example, "Holy moley, I have to draw the White House and have it done in half an hour!") Background stuff is cool. But there's a limit, isn't there?
Edited by Ethan Van Sciver on 23 August 2005 at 2:22pm
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 35752
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Posted: 23 August 2005 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | 3
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Is Adams really saying that an artist should trace people and put
costumes on them for their professional work, or is he saying that
artists should trace as a way to learn how to draw, but not do so as a
way to complete a project? It sounds to me like he's saying the
latter, not the former.
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Jeremy Nichols Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 634
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Posted: 23 August 2005 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | 4
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I got out of it that he was saying trace as practice, not for
finished work.
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Ethan Van Sciver Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 February 2005 Posts: 522
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Posted: 23 August 2005 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | 5
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Well, if he's saying the latter, then he didn't understand the question posed to him. And it's an irrelevant point of view anyhow. Who disagrees with the idea that tracing photographs in the privacy of your own home for your own edification is a good thing?
The question is, should we all start tracing photographs that we didn't take ourselves, you know, out of magazines for example, lightbox them, alter them slightly and call it a comic book?
So rephrase the question to Neal that way, and see what he has to say.
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Mikael Bergkvist Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 April 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 1857
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Posted: 23 August 2005 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 6
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People could draw before photographs, so obviously, that's not a given, but it's a very useful tool that can help an artist to evolve, and I assume that this is what he speaks of.. never say no to anything that can help you advance your understanding of the world. Because it's not important how you eventually render it, in what style, etc, but how well you understand it at that time when you do. For example, Jack Kirby clearly understood the world he lived in. That fact shines through, even in images that often would not be regarded as "realistic" in any sense of the word. It seems that Kirby was very "down to earth", and strangely enough I get that impression even when reading his most outrageous cosmic stuff. (Goodland, not so much..) I also belive this to be true with Spiderman, or any other truly powerful piece of storytelling and/or art. It does'nt matter if you detail the world as a photorealistic rendering or surreal dreamworld, if you have studied 'the real deal' extensivly and can relate that understanding, and phototracing is a helpful tool in regard to certain visual/architectural aspects of that process. It helps me to get the general feel for cities, how they appear as a mass, and how buildings are structured, and how the mass of people flow within and through all of this.
It's a tool, and it's a good one, but eventually, you will gravity away from it, and rely more and more on your own powers of visualization.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 35752
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Posted: 23 August 2005 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 7
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Ethan Van Sciver wrote:
The question is, should we all start tracing photographs that we
didn't take ourselves, you know, out of magazines for example, lightbox them,
alter them slightly and call it a comic book?
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Like the HOUSE OF M cover with Magneto that was pulled? I don't
think you'll find many people in support of that kind of "art".
At least I hope not.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 30924
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Posted: 23 August 2005 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 8
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Ethan, we don't know what the question Neal was answering was. David didn't include his exact phrasing of his question in his post.
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Charles Jensen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 April 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1127
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Posted: 23 August 2005 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 9
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I read that Bruce Timm would trace the lines of the characters in his comic books as a young child. I wonder if you used this method as a young child.. and traced artists that had a great command of these fundamentals, if it would be even more beneficial than trying to trace actual life photos, because these artists do a better job of actually finding the lines than you would trying to trace real phots? This is difficult to explain, heh.
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Eric Lund Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2074
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Posted: 23 August 2005 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | 10
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Tracing is a tool of learning of how to get used to following the correct lines and getting yourself condition to draw things accurately. Many of the great masters DeVinci, Michaelangelo ,etc spent time tracing and copying other masters works.... If you don't know how to make the right line it helps you to make the right line...It is conditioning and learning how to see and how to make what you see appear on paper.
It wasn't a means to end it was a path to becoming a better artist. From that type of excercise you glean an understanding of how a particular artist goes about constructing things... I have found it a good excercise to break down an artist figure into its basic shapes and forms and action lines to glean how a figure was constructed and how to then make it my own. Often time you will see a pose or part of the body that you want to use and you have that as a reference point to help you out...
Looking at how artists spot blacks or setup the thrust of a panel or page is very insightful.... Kirby was a master of drawing your eye and then thrusting you smack dab in the middle of the action,... he did this with negative space and shadow and the thrust of the action..those elements are important to composition and to be able to break that down and see it can only help...
Photos help you see things that you don't have access to in your imediate surroundings... If you have to draw an Elephant and don't have one in your backyard looking at photos helps you see what an Elephant looks like from different angles and you use that to help you create.
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Darren Taylor Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 6003
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Posted: 23 August 2005 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | 11
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Matt, I think we all know -roughly- how the boddy fits together at least on a purely surface level. Fingernails go on the fingers...nose in the centre of the face, feet below the ankles etc.
"Knowing" your anatomy and skeletal layout is a very useful base from which to grow. But it doesn't do anything other than assist the artist with the translation, in the same way that understanding that knowing how to operate a cassette helps someone learn another language by listening to it.
Chris had wondered whether an artist has to train him/herself to "see" the world differently. That's definitely not the experience I have had, admitedly I'm only one person but I have mingled with fellow artisans over the years;-) The impression I get is that I already know how I see the world, the images spill out my ears everytime I look left and right before I cross the road! What I need to do is educate -you- how to see my images.
I do this over many years by learning how thing look when I make a mark on a piece of paper. I recognise what has worked for past masters and I develop those techniques my way. For example, Johns use of "Kirby Krackle". It's a technique obviously not of his own creation but he's developed this technique, subtely making it work within his artistic context so as not to look out of place. Yet we all understand what the Kirby Krackle is, we recognise it as breaking water, exploding stars, molten lava and the searing heat around flames when John uses it...yet boiled down they are only little circlis of black and white interlaced using the negative space to suggest form. We can all "draw" a full stop right!? The difference is that John has "persuaded" your eye to accept that this over sized full stop means something with the context in which it appears.
The good news is, we all speak Byrnese. The clever part is getting people to speak your language!
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Jeremy Nichols Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 634
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Posted: 23 August 2005 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 12
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I'm against people ripping off other people's photos and that
kind of thing... besides, I'd be too afraid I'd get sued. Especially
in this age, with all the internet dudes, someone is bound to
notice.
I think, though, after some reflection, that if a person were to
take photos themselves and trace those, that wouldn't bother
me. They probably wouldn't be my favorite artist, but who
knows? If the end result looked good, maybe.
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