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Topic: Amazing Spider-Man now with spoilers (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Marcus Kelligrew
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 9:34pm | IP Logged | 1  

Gentlemen and ladies we now know why JB's comics are so good!

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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 02 December 2005 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | 2  

I flipped through the first Ezekiel story recently and it's actually not that bad -- after all, Spider-Man did defeat the bad guy through his knowledge of science (how rare that has become!). The problem is -- as many feared -- was that all of this would continue or be considered "canon."

The last scene of the story arc, in which Aunt May walks in on a battle-weary Peter with the remains of his costume strewn around was a great cliffhanger and back when things were sane, the next episode would have had a nice explanation that would have brought everything back to the status quo rather than shattering it completely. But I suppose that's how far comics have fallen. Certain rules (the illusion of change) are no longer followed.

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 12:37am | IP Logged | 3  

 Jason Schulman wrote:
One who was told to do so by his editor.

Told to do so by his editor in the manner in which it was done, or told to do so by his editor and the author took it upon himself to take what another author wrote and turn it into a practical joke?  HUGE difference. One is mandate, the other is shitting on someone with the cop out that they were "told to do it."

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Jason Schulman
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 1:02am | IP Logged | 4  

PAD's words, from his blog:
----

"For what it's worth, I didn't give a damn about the Byrne story one way or the other. I thought it wasn't bad; not great, but not bad. It did, however, frost the flakes of several writers and the "X-Factor" editor, basically because Byrne's story made the Inhumans look like assholes. John Byrne, foremost advocate of adhering to creator intent, ignored not only sequences where Stan and Jack had the Inhumans referring to, and treating, Lockjaw as their pet or dog, but the subsequent decades worth of continuity that did the same.

So, since Quicksilver was going to be in "X-Factor," the writers--and the editor in particular--asked me to take the opportunity to undo that development as quickly and simply as I could. I shrugged, said, "Okay, boss," and did so."
---

Note: supposedly Kurt Busiek had some hand in it as well, as related here: http://www.ffplaza.com/commcenter/articles/Lockjaw.shtml



Edited by Jason Schulman on 03 December 2005 at 1:04am
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 1:12am | IP Logged | 5  

So it's my second statement: "Told to do so by his editor and the author took it upon himself to take what another author wrote and turn it into a practical joke...shitting on someone with the cop out that they were 'told to do it.'"  I knew that all along.  I just didn't want your original post to stand without being challenged.

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Joe Smith
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 1:14am | IP Logged | 6  

I've never seen the Inhumans treat Lockjaw badly.
Just the opposite, afaik.

BTW, I never saw that issue or heard of this development.
It scared me, just a  minute ago, reading that for the first time,

What a startling development that was.
The silent Grimm panel was perfect.

Nice. JB. Nice.

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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 1:30am | IP Logged | 7  

I'm not sure I can get behind the Lockjaw-as-talking-Inhuman idea, but the idea that 2 Inhumans were playing a practical joke on the Thing is far worse.
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Emery Calame
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 3:40am | IP Logged | 8  

Well...the Inhumans ARE pretty much semi-crazy inbred elitist ass holes mired in very old and politically incorrect (and often not very humanistic or individualist) traditions? Aren't they?

I've always read them as kind of a sick stagnant automated society/race that has hyper-bred and mutated itself itself to near extinction in pursuit of great power. Their policies of near absolute eugenic monarchy and a scientist class running everything are all ideas that are pretty compatible with having some kid become a teleporting dog-like being and then being treated ever after as a dog because "heck it's traditional". That's what the mists brought out in him so that's what he is.

As individuals the Inhumans seem okay but as a society they are pretty scary. It's like the people of Gormenghast trapped in some never ending exercise of ritual because after millenia of it there is NOTHING else left of thier cultural vitality.



Edited by Emery Calame on 03 December 2005 at 9:59am
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Todd Douglas
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 9:17am | IP Logged | 9  


 QUOTE:
So it's my second statement: "Told to do so by his editor and the author took it upon himself to take what another author wrote and turn it into a practical joke...shitting on someone with the cop out that they were 'told to do it.'"


I don't see anything in the proverbial peek behind the curtains that describes what you're describing.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 10  

"John Byrne, foremost advocate of adhering to creator intent, ignored not only sequences where Stan and Jack had the Inhumans referring to, and treating, Lockjaw as their pet or dog, but the subsequent decades worth of continuity that did the same. "

***********************

Nothing about that states that Lockjaw was not an Inhuman at some point. A friend's sister has Down's Syndrome and is mentally at the level of a seven year old. That's how her family treats her -- even my friend who is actually younger than she is. They aren't being "assholes" -- anymore than the Inhumans would be for treating something that looks like a big dog as a big dog (it's not like they had him on a leash or something -- heck, given how some people treat their pets, you'd think those poodles wearing sweaters and attending doggie daycare were once people).

******************************

I'm not sure I can get behind the Lockjaw-as-talking-Inhuman idea, but the idea that 2 Inhumans were playing a practical joke on the Thing is far worse.

******************************************

Yes, it undermined the whole point of the story, which was to accept a child for what it is -- normal or exceptional -- rather than risk deforming it, which was what happened to Lockjaw. If you really had a a problem with Lockjaw as a former Inhuman, then you should find a better way of retconning that development than a "practical joke."

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 9:38am | IP Logged | 11  

Stephen explained it better than I could have, Todd.  It's exactly as I described it.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 12  

(quoting Peter David) "...because Byrne's story made the Inhumans look like assholes. John Byrne, foremost advocate of adhering to creator intent, ignored not only sequences where Stan and Jack had the Inhumans referring to, and treating, Lockjaw as their pet or dog, but the subsequent decades worth of continuity that did the same. "

****

While I would normally never dispute Peter's expertise on turning characters into assholes, he's wrong on this one. The FF and their supporting cast (most especially Johnny and Wyatt, when they are traveling with Lockjaw) treat Lockjaw as a dog, but the Inhumans do not refer to him as a dog, and always speak to him as they speak to each other. Further, Lockjaw responds in ways that suggest he is something other than a dog. When I did my research, looking for anything that might contradict my story, I found in the Stan and Jack years only one instance in which Crystal greets Lockjaw as "Puppy Boy". The rest of the time she and the other Inhumans speak conversationally both to and about him.

Did Stan and Jack intend that Lockjaw be something more than just a dog? Probably about as much as they intended the Hulk become a bouncer in Las Vegas, or any of a thousand other character developments which they did not spell out specifically, but likewise did not specifically "forbid" with what they wrote.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 13  

Nothing about that states that Lockjaw was not an Inhuman at some point.

****

That needs a bit of fine tuning. Lockjaw should not be refered to as a "former" inhuman, any more than should Triton, or Gorgon,or that Centaur guy, each of whom were transformed by the Terragin mists into something very different from human. In fact, the whole point is that the Inhumans are not "human", in much the same way that we are not Cromagnon. The Royal Family seem to hold their position largely because their transformations are less physically dramatic than other Inhumans.

++++

you should find a better way of retconning that development than a "practical joke."

****

Or, if that seems the only course available, perhaps chose two "jokesters" better suited to the role than Karnak and Gorgon.

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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 14  

Discussing Inhumans and the Terragen mist makes me speculate that Joey da Q gave himself an out with regards to the "no more mutants" edict...
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 15  

Maybe Da Quester subscribes to Intelligent Design.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 16  

Hmm... which writer was it did that...?

++++

One who was told to do so by his editor.

*****

Really creeps me out when PAD plays the "I was
only following orders" card.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 03 December 2005 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 17  

LOL!
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Ken Plume
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Posted: 05 December 2005 at 1:07am | IP Logged | 18  

It had to happen - "The Adventures of Li'l Squitch", Marvel's newest all-ages strip...

http://www.onetusk.com/images/squitch1.jpg

http://www.onetusk.com/images/squitch2.jpg

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Brian Kirk
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Posted: 05 December 2005 at 5:57am | IP Logged | 19  

Li'l Squitch rules!!  Where can I get a t-shirt?
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John McMahon
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Posted: 07 December 2005 at 4:38am | IP Logged | 20  

...

Dumbness warning (also big spoilers for FNSM#3) -

http://www.livejournal.com/community/scans_daily/1166338.h tml#cutid1
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Thanos Kollias
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Posted: 07 December 2005 at 5:00am | IP Logged | 21  

Yikes!

The book is Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man? What's wrong with these people? What's wrong with JMS? He seems to want to utterly destroy everything Spider-Man stands for! Could it be they want to bring Marvel down?

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Jason Fulton
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Posted: 07 December 2005 at 9:03am | IP Logged | 22  

If you want to avoid spoilers, or if you're waiting to pick the book up later in the day, don't click 'em: (might be the same thing as McMahon's post, but his link didn't work for me)

http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=badface8qm.jpg

http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=badface23du.jpg

http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=badface37zp.jpg

http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=badface41sw.jpg

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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 December 2005 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 23  

When did spiders develop retractable Wolverine
style claws?

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Brian Miller
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Posted: 07 December 2005 at 9:08am | IP Logged | 24  

Same as John's link, Jason. You have to remove the space between the h and the t int the html part of his link.

 

Christ, I'm glad I don't read Spider-Man any more. Good lord, how rediculous.

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Brian Miller
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Posted: 07 December 2005 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 25  

When did spiders develop retractable Wolverine
style claws?

***************

Same time they started shooting web from the ends of their legs, I guess.

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