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Brian Miller
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 8:42am | IP Logged | 1  

Excellent recommendation, Kevin. I'm still anxiously awaiting the last 2 volumes in paperback.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 2  

We live in a country in which someone can be called
a "racist" for using ("the N-word") to say it's a bad
word!

******************

HUCK FINN is probably the most anti-racist book in the world and given the time period, it's even more an accomplishment. I mean, the main character -- a 10 year old white kid -- decides that he'd rather "go to hell" by defying everything he's been taught to believe is "right" because he won't betray his friend, despite his race. Yet, "liberals" were trying to ban this book as if it were MEIN KAMPF. It's heartbreaking. I mean, I've been the black guy fighting to get BIRTH OF A NATION shown at the campus theatre because of its historical and educational value, but at least I knew the opposition toward it, while I believed misguided, was at least reasonable (it is a racist film), but the anti-FINN crowd were, well, yes FUCKING IDIOTS!

 

 

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Leroy Douresseaux
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 3  

Spike Lee thinks a minstrel show would be a huge success in a White market. What more do you need to know about his stance on these matters?

**********************

Well, maybe not a huge success...

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Jeff Stockwell
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 8:53am | IP Logged | 4  

I'm a big fan of the Turtledove books. Obviously, as his world moves
further and further away from the Civil War it becomes much more
speculative. However, they're a heckuva lotta fun to read.
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Scott Michael
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 5  

The constitution of the Confederacy is interesting, compared to ours.


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Andrew Davey
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 10:50am | IP Logged | 6  

What If the south gained independance.

The South may have been forced to industialize if trade with the north was not normalized after the seperation.

Whether the South would have declined into third world status would (err could) have depended on the following factors (1) LEADERSHIP, if progressive leaders invested the new nations resources into useful things like education and economic development (2) the eventual end to slavery (3) the openess of the southern society to the imigration boom from Europe that was to occur soon. After all it was the hard work and inginuity of those new imigrants (like my own Irish ancestors) that built this great nation :-)

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Ed Munoz
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 7  

god ,i miss that series.......

had the chance to meet vince stone at a chicago con way back when.hes far from racist,and in the marvel series,they even changed the captain into a black woman.

by the way,his cover to the first issue is the very first piece of comic art i ever bought.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | 8  

Whether the South would have declined into third world status would (err could) have depended on the following factors (1) LEADERSHIP, if progressive leaders invested the new nations resources into useful things like education and economic development (2) the eventual end to slavery (3) the openess of the southern society to the imigration boom from Europe that was to occur soon. After all it was the hard work and inginuity of those new imigrants (like my own Irish ancestors) that built this great nation...

****

There seems to be some degree of looking at this thru the wrong end of the telescope (or the history book) wobbling around this thread. The big question would have to be: how soon would the Confederacy have abandoned slavery, without the North to support them (as would have been the case without the Civil War)? Having based virtually their entire economy on the institution, plus having just won a bloody war (which, also, they would have had to have won very early on), they would be disinclined to turn around in a couple of years and say "Oops! My bad!" and dump slavery for more enlightened thinking.

The longer the Confederacy stayed slavery-based, the deeper it would sink, as the rest of the world rose. Becoming what we would now call a Third World nation would not have taken long at all. Heck, the North was pretty close to what we'd call a Third World nation today, and back then it was one of the most advanced societies on the planet!

As noted, Southern Pride would be a tremendous hurdle, and in this case something that would, I think, doom the Confederacy to poverty and starvation, worse and worse as time went by.

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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 9  

John Byrne:

As noted, Southern Pride would be a tremendous hurdle, and in this case something that would, I think, doom the Confederacy to poverty and starvation, worse and worse as time went by.

=================

The South was in many ways a Third World country before the New Deal and later social programs came along, anyway. Plus you had the Jim Crow system, in which they legally consigned a significant portion of their population to poverty and practical non-citizenship, hindering any chance of economic growth and overall development. In the decades after Reconstruction, Southern states set about restoring as much of slavery as they could, just without calling it slavery.

Bear in mind, the Jim Crow system was only undone through a long and hard struggle from the 1950's-1970's, which necessitated heavy federal intervention to force Southern states to give it up. I truly do wonder just how long it might have been before an independent South would have abandoned slavery.
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Leroy Douresseaux
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 7:33pm | IP Logged | 10  

Spike Lee thinks a minstrel show would be a huge success in a White market. What more do you need to know about his stance on these matters?

***************************************

I just realized that you may be talking about a particular Spike Lee film because I have never heard Spike say this, and I follow his career.  And if you're talking about his movie "Bamboozled," the hit minstrel show and its subsequent success is not the focus of this film.  If you seen the movie...



Edited by Leroy Douresseaux on 12 January 2006 at 7:35pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | 11  

And if you're talking about his movie "Bamboozled," the hit minstrel show and its subsequent success is not the focus of this film.

****

Emphasis mine.

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Monte Gruhlke
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Posted: 12 January 2006 at 11:58pm | IP Logged | 12  

I always liked the Captain Confederacy series - I'll bet Harry Turtledove took some ideas from it for sure. One thing to conside is the global impact of a split United States. Whether or not the South could keep it's act together, the lack of the USA as a "global superpower" would have dramatic reprocussions on the rest of history; Germany would have had more free reign in the world war, China and the USSR would have been the dominant global superpowers on the planet. Would the North have tried to seize more land from Canada... would we even have gotten Alaska and Hawaii? Would the South have pushed down into Mexico for more resources?

Nothing is set into stone. Though slavery was becoming an outmoded way of life back then, regardless of whether the South recognized it or not, the ramifications of the succession and splitting of the Union would have drastically changed the course of global history.

And being a white man, I just dote on minstrel shows. Huzzah! Huzzah!

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