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Ted Pugliese Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 05 December 2005 Location: United States Posts: 7985
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | 1
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This is why I think there should be multiple titles and/or lines. One for "classic" comics and one for older, long term readers. However, I think the regular Marvel titles should be the "classic" comics, instead of the "Ultimate" line.
Amazing Spider-Man should always feature the original, Amazing Spider-Man, and I too think he should not be married.
Instead of the "Ultimate" line, Marvel Knights, or something sooner, could have been created for (us?) older readers with higher-quality formats (and prices) geared toward more "mature readers." I am not saying that they should be labeled that way (I do not care one way or the other), but I see this line as spinning off the regular, classic line (sharing the same history), and then moving forward, away from the classic line.
The Marvel Knights titles "Spider-Man" and "Four" could have done this. I see them as sharing the same history as Amazing and Fantastic, but providing the mature, older reader with a progressive continuity wherein the characters grow and change.
Now relax, I care barely enough, either way, to write these words. It just seems that a publisher could give everybody what they want without making it such an issue. Marvel Knights almost did this, but now that it is gone and their creator is the boss, it sems that the regular line has become this "older" line and JQ had to create his "Ultimate" line to re-create what he lost. Problem is, this way he got them both wrong, and people are not happy.
My way, Marvel Knights (for lack of a better term) could have taken Daredevil, Spider-Man, the FF, and the New Avengers (yes New Avengers) forward and left the "classic" Marvels in the original Marvel Universe.
As time went by in the Marvel Knight world, I propose a 4:1 ratio (4 years of comics = 1 year of Knight-time), these titles would creep ahead and slowly grow with their aging, mature audience. This "experiment" would continue as long as the demand was there, identified by the market and sales.
Today, I think the demand for multiple titles is there, especially among older, working readers with more disposable income. And if the time came to end the experiment, imagine the fun you could have curing the Thing and/or the Hulk, or having Spidey retire, wives giving birth, etc. How would it all end? If this line did have to be dropped, you could tell these stories without destroying the Marvel Universe. Maybe Galactus would finally feast!
But they did not do this. Instead, the Marvel Universe is left changed with nobody brave enough or bold enough to fix it. Even JQ thinks Spidey cannot be fixed, and everybody complains.
But this is comics, and there is always a way! I have a bunch of ideas myself, and I bet you do too. To be continued...
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14888
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 2
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This is why I think there should be multiple titles and/or lines. One for "classic" comics and one for older, long term readers. However, I think the regular Marvel titles should be the "classic" comics, instead of the "Ultimate" line.
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They already do this with the Marvel Adventures line. The problem with ghettoizing titles like this is that you give the sense that one of them is "not real". A silly complaint, but it's how one of the lines will be perceived.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36313
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 2:44pm | IP Logged | 3
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And why do we need this? Why? Are there three different lines of Harry Potter books, four different lines of Winnie the Pooh tales, two different lines of Hardy Boys adventures, six different Archie comics, all in an effort to appeal to under 10, tweens, teen agers, twenty, thirty and forty-somethings? I don't get the whole idea of splitting the characters to appeal to ever smaller niche audiences (and given the marketing at Marvel and DC, they've already f**ked that up). It's simple: hire talented writers who know how to tell good, all-ages stories that don't talk down to kids or written like real kiddie fare.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 4
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Just compare any Lee / Ditko story and any story from the 90's or 00's.
Don't be like a silly fanboy and smirk at the "simple art" or "stilted
dialogue" of the original stories. Notice the passion and heroism of
the characters that the latter stories only manage to pantomine.
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David Blot Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 858
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | 5
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Re : Marvel Knights, marvel age and al.
First of all : the Knights thing is not that new. Anything written by
DonMcGregor at MArvel in the 70's (or some Gerber and Starlin) was
much more mature than say the last Champions. Yes - they all went
under the same code, but that was a bit hypocrite here. Kraven the Last
Hunt (or DD Born Again !!!) would be considered for mature titles today.
So nothing new here really, just the brand.
Secondly : remember Spidey Super Stories ? Spider-Man stories for young
children because the ongoing title was a bit too, hum, 'mature'. That was
in the 70's.
That said, my take on it (and that connect to another Graphic Novel
theory I have), is that the comic books should be for kids and teens, and
the more mature material should be in GN directly, for adults and late
teens. Ecomically that makes sense too.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | 6
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Multiple "lines" make sense only to dedicated fans, because the
differences are dictated by concerns peculiar to fans.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 29 April 2006 at 2:50pm
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36313
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 2:55pm | IP Logged | 7
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There should be no "adult take" on mainstream, iconic, classic superheroes from Marvel or DC. Ever. No "mature" story of Spider-Man, FF, Superman, Batman, Flash, et. al. They should be written in a manner that appeals to All. Ages. SUPER STORIES was a merchandising tie-in with the Electric Company, aimed specifically to get the very young reading comics, not because ASM (with the exception, not the rule, of the Harry drug issues) was too mature.
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David Blot Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 858
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | 8
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I think it's far too late for that, Matt. It could have been, it was not. One of
the reason is that the characters are not owned by the creators but by the
company.
There is only one line of Harry Potter books you say. Much true. But I can
also tell you that when Rowling will stop the Potter, there won't be a Roy
Thomas (then JB, then Liefeld, now Quesada) to develop the characters
anymore. Do you think Walt Disney wanted a 'Bambi 2' ? But Disney inc (or
whatever there called), yes.
We all know the classic Spider-Man. It was a creation of the 60's done by
Ditko and Lee.
I'd like to know the actual creation of the actual Ditko and Lee more than
actual authors doing their take on it.
(Well in fact not, this is why I still like my actual super-heroes, but I don't
complain, if I want a timeless book, Tintin is here for me - hell, Lee &
Kirby & Romita Sr are still are for me too, thanks to all the reprints they
do now).
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Matt Linton Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 13 December 2005 Posts: 2022
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | 9
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Question for Matt Reed:
I'm on the fence about the "adult take" issue. On the one hand, I think the regular series (appearing in 22 page comics) should be all ages, if for no other reason than to avoid potential confusion when a mom brings her kid in to buy the latest Spider-Man comic ("Oh no, don't buy THAT one, that's the adult comic, here, this one's for the kids"). At the same time I think books like The Dark Knight Returns, Bendis/Maleev Daredevil, The Ultimates, Elektra Lives etc. are worth being published.
So the question is, how would you feel about "adult take" stories with iconic, classic superheroes being published only in trades/GN format?
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Chris Durnell Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 26 February 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1234
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 10
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I don't think Peter's marriage to MJ added anything to Spider-Man, but it didn't really detract anything. Peter was not a gigolo and always faithful to his girlfriend at the time. Even during the Betty Brant-Liz Allen love triangle, it was obvious that Peter only wanted Betty.
If one wants there to be problems between Pete and MJ occassionally, instead of breaking up over them (which they might do if dating), they'd have to work them out like real couples do. Marriage does not equal all romance problems go away. Important note though: no infidelity stories of either party ever.
The major mistake was deciding that MJ was a super-model. That was way too glamorous on one hand and way too corrupt on the other (with plenty of stories of drug use, eating disorders, and other immorality in that industry). One can be a model and not be a super-model. If MJ was just a model (appearing in the occasional local retailer fall catalog ( not Victoria's Secret), or being the eye candy hired at some business convention) then it still might have been OK. If not, lots of people don't hack it and move on to something else so they can have a career.
Many couples go through financial hard times, especially early in the marriage. Handled rightly, nothing essential would have changed about the character or his situation. If one is willing to complain about Peter and MJ being in love and married was too happy, then one could Peter being in love and dating Betty, Gwen, or MJ earlier was too happy.
Peter could still be married to MJ while having financial difficulties, having occassional quarrels, worrying about Aunt May, and working on his PhD at Empire State.
The only retcon needed to Peter's marriage is for MJ to not be a super-model/aspiring actress/other glamorous or well paid profession.
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David Blot Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 858
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 3:17pm | IP Logged | 11
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Chris wrote : , it was obvious that Peter only wanted Betty.
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Yes, but he didnt have her ! That's the main difference. The main thing is
that Peter is unhappy in life, whereas it is job or girls.
Chris wrote : The major mistake was deciding that MJ was a super-model
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I don't know if it is the major one, but it's definitely stupid. Super
models are Devon, Naomie and Kate (oh, Kate). There are 10 in the world
today, 50 maybe in the all time of our world (Twiggy the first !). They are
more super heroes in Marvel world than super models in our world.
The various takes on MJ by different writers is the baddest. One day she's
Claudia Shiffer, the next day a soap opera star, the next writer, an
unknown starlet.... Abolutely none coherency.
Edited by David Blot on 29 April 2006 at 3:22pm
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David Blot Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 858
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Posted: 29 April 2006 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | 12
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Oh yeah, and sorry to add, to draw a super model you also have to be a
super drawner. The funny thing is that Romita was doing one hell of
supermodel of MJ when she was not (and dont event talk about Gwen), when
(your worst 90's drawner here) makes MJ super model looks like a humor
page Hustler girl.
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