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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 17 January 2010 at 8:29pm | IP Logged | 1
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OK what if Billy Batson had gone through the aging process? Wouldn't he be older than Capt. Marvel now? === If Billy Batson goes thru this, you lose the character dynamic entirely. Some writers have skirted the edge of him being older, but never just aged him to my knowledge.
The child who becomes the superhero is what makes that character unique. Aging him would probably be the death nail in him coffin as a character.
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Arc Carlton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 April 2009 Location: Peru Posts: 3493
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Posted: 17 January 2010 at 9:03pm | IP Logged | 2
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I'm just waiting for DC to pull a "Spider-Man/MJ" - and dissolve the Superman/Lois marriage. The writers seem unable to deal with the marriage, so they largely ignore it (of course, they could just be bad writers...). ___________________________ I don't think DC will ever try to get rid of Clark / Lois wedding.
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Luke Styer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1515
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Posted: 17 January 2010 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | 3
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John Byrne wrote:
Spider-Man's journey has been a strange one. He was created by a coupleof middle-aged guys (Stan Lee, early 40s at the time, and Steve Ditko,late 30s) who tried to capture what it was like to be a teenager. Thenthe torch was passed to a younger group, who tended to write Parker andhis pals pretty much as themselves, 20-somethings who moved Peterfurther away from his high school beginnings and began to bring inissues that, it could be argued, were not properly part of theexperiences of the target audience. |
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I tend to think that Spider-Man has suffered more from the "lets age the characters" bug than most superheroes. Earlier, anyway. I wonder if that doesn't stem from the fact that he started as both a "main character'" and as a kid. You talk about the younger group who wrote Peter and co. "as themselves." I wonder if that's a reflection of the fact that when that younger group was reading, Spider-Man and his supporting cast was them, i.e. a bunch of kids, while most other main characters weren't them, so when they took over writing, they just kept Peter and friends their age rather than leaving them as kids. Eventually those same creators caught up with other superheroes in terms of age and then those characters started aging, too.
Edited by Luke Styer on 17 January 2010 at 11:12pm
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 17 January 2010 at 10:34pm | IP Logged | 4
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I think a lot of writers just don't like writing about kids or teenagers. So as quckly as possible they age them. Whne written correctly a kid hero can exemplify the fun that goes in to being a superhero. But when every hero you write is "dark and gritty" there isn't much room for fun. (Comix iz serious bizznes)
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Russ Webb Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 323
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Posted: 17 January 2010 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 5
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I like the idea of a super hero series in which it has a beginning, middle & end. If at all possible, have it chronicling the lifespan of the character from right before they got their powers (if possible) to their very end (i.e. death via whatever means). If this means the character is 60-70 years old when they finally die, then so be it. Naturally leave the series story vague enough to have other stories that could be told later with no need to shoe-horn them into the lore.
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Rob Ocelot Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 December 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 1231
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Posted: 18 January 2010 at 12:48am | IP Logged | 6
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Russ Webb wrote:
I like the idea of a super hero series in which it has a beginning,middle & end. If at all possible, have it chronicling the lifespanof the character from right before they got their powers (if possible)to their very end (i.e. death via whatever means). If this means thecharacter is 60-70 years old when they finally die, then so be it. Naturally leave the series story vague enough to have other storiesthat could be told later with no need to shoe-horn them into the lore.
I'm sorry Russ, but what you just said makes too much logical sense for it to be even acknowledged by a mainstream comic company. :-)
It's interesting to note that the Lee/Ditko Spider-man stories follow exactly what you describe above. The stories progressed in mostly real time (Peter graduated high school, as an example) and there were enough gaps to slot in stories that added to the cohesive whole without feeling shoehorned in there (as the success of UTOS showed).
The problems crept in when they decided to keep Peter at a certain age, whether it was for reasons of marketability or the comfort zone of the writers (and later the fans-turned-writers) almost seems a moot point. The longer the character remains in this ageless state the greater chance some writer is going to conceive of something that is so completely out of character and unnatural for Peter that it will turn readers away in droves. Either that or the attempts to break the mediocrity will have to be so extreme and sweeping (and in some cases illogical) that it will accomplish the same. It's debatable if OMD and BND represent these predictions. Right now they are attempting to write Peter in a way that simultaneously is relevant to older readers and to younger ones -- a nearly impossible task to keep up for any period of time.
I'd much rather have Peter grow older, have a family and eventually quit the super-hero business with either someone else taking the Spider-man name or just mothballing the character for contemporary stories. Do stories set in specific eras if they still need to publish *a* Spider-man comic every month. Come to think of it, wasn't that the point of Webspinners?
We then get back to the rest of the MU as a whole, where aging and time are so completely out of whack that Cap will have emerged from suspended animation *after* 9-11, Reed and Ben being war buddies during the most recent (unnammable) war/conflict, and any character with the smallest amount of marketability given an 'aging factor' or 'healing factor' to fudge over what amounts to sloppy writing and poor research.
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 18 January 2010 at 2:18am | IP Logged | 7
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Nothing wrong with Super-hero stories with a beginning, middle and end. It just is not going to work with a character designed not to have an ending. All their adventures take place in the middle. Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker are part of the "appeal" of Superman, Batman and Spider-Man. Sticking someone else in the suit makes no sense in terms of sales and marketing. Getting hung up on window dressing like dates and fashion means you're overthinking your comics. It doesn't matter when Cap came out of the ice or what war Ben and Reed fought in. Those happended "yesterday" and the current issue happens "now". Those are the only time markers you need.
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 18 January 2010 at 3:33am | IP Logged | 8
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Just encountered a new twist in this debate. Someone tried to equate keeping Peter Parker a teenager with keeping Sue Storm an early 60's style "helpless female". Said Marvel's character do not exist in a "time warp" If I was writing Spider-man, Peter would be written as a contemporary teen and in FF Sue would be written as a contemporary woman in her twenties. After all these stories would take place in 2010 not the 1960s. Why would anyone assume otherwise?
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Martin Redmond Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006 Posts: 3882
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Posted: 18 January 2010 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 9
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Some women could be kept as helpless females, I don't see the big deal. :/ Same of like some men should be lamer fighters than others and never get better. And kinda similar, while I'd want troubled people to get help, I'd rather characters like Aurora were never cured. Have her skip her meds or something. Cuz Jeanne-Marie is a great character in her own right too, even if she's close to being an over achieving sinner sometimes. Kids or teens should stay at that stage forever. It's like permanent kittens, who'd be agaisnt that?
Edited by Martin Redmond on 18 January 2010 at 8:17am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133457
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Posted: 18 January 2010 at 9:27am | IP Logged | 10
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I like the idea of a super hero series in which it has a beginning, middle & end. If at all possible, have it chronicling the lifespan of the character from right before they got their powers (if possible) to their very end (i.e. death via whatever means). If this means the character is 60-70 years old when they finally die, then so be it.•• Which is precisely the idea behind GENERATIONS -- and an "imaginary story" such as GENERATIONS is precisely where such ideas belong. Certainly not in a "shared universe" with previously established characters.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133457
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Posted: 18 January 2010 at 9:31am | IP Logged | 11
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The problems crept in when they decided to keep Peter at a certain age, whether it was for reasons of marketability or the comfort zone of the writers (and later the fans-turned-writers) almost seems a moot point. The longer the character remains in this ageless state the greater chance some writer is going to conceive of something that is so completely out of character and unnatural for Peter that it will turn readers away in droves.•• Keeping them truly timeless -- which means no life-altering events -- is exactly what kept characters like Superman and Batman appealing to a steadily shifting audience for decades. "Steadily shifting" is the key phrase. The problem lies not in the timeless characters, but in the readers who stick around long enough to NOTICE that the characters are timeless. The first time you think to yourself Hey! I'm five years older than when I started reading, why isn't Captain Fonebone? is exactly the time you should be thinking about finding another hobby.
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Don Zomberg Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005 Posts: 2355
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Posted: 18 January 2010 at 9:35am | IP Logged | 12
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The stories progressed mostly in real time... Only in the beginning. Stan and his artists did finally put the brakes on when they realized these characters had endurance in the market place. The notion of characters growing old and retiring so they can be replaced is the kind of thinking that has had disastrous consequences for the industry (Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Silver Age Flash). Say it with me--these are FICTIONAL characters.
Edited by Don Zomberg on 18 January 2010 at 9:37am
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