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Jim Muir Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 26 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1384
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Posted: 04 August 2010 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 1
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<<The techniques used in KANE were done for the very first time in film>>
Except they weren't.
Wells' deep focus technique was used earlier in The Long Voyage Home, his nonlinear storytelling technique was preceded by The Power And The Glory. I could go on, but I dont think we need a shopping list of Kane's 'groundbreaking techniques' to make the point.
So, very much like Watchmen - a mashup of techniques and storytelling never seen before on that scale together.
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Robert LaGuardia Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 15 November 2007 Location: United States Posts: 1296
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Posted: 04 August 2010 at 11:59am | IP Logged | 2
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Thanks I've been meaning to read Eisner's Spirit. I tried 100 Bullets but didn't care for it. When I think sophisticated (or whatever word we're using) I think of Chris Ware.
Edited by Robert LaGuardia on 04 August 2010 at 12:12pm
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David Kingsley Kingsley Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 18 June 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1098
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Posted: 04 August 2010 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 3
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Matt, Citizen Kane owes much of its dynamic camerawork to the German expressionist movement from years, even decades previous. Citizen Kane may have been one of, if not the first American film to use much of that in the manner which it did, and therefore popularized those techniques for an audience, but Watchmen, too, was one of, if not the first superhero comic to use the techniques employed as well as it did. Both are not important because they were the first to tell their stories the way that they did, but important because they were the first to reach large, mainstream audiences (for their times and with consideration of their respective mediums) and therefore become influential. (Hey, sorry that I missed your earlier post Jim. Must not have seen it.)
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Jim Muir Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 26 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1384
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Posted: 04 August 2010 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | 4
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Seems we're on the same page, Dave.
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David Kingsley Kingsley Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 18 June 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1098
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Posted: 04 August 2010 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 5
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And for works as "sophisticated" (if not moreso) than Watchmen, I agree with Eisner's The Spirit Sim's Cerebus. And the work of Robert Crumb I'll also add Neil Gaiman's Sandman and (if you even consider it comparable), the first thirty years or so of Mad Magazine.
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Pete York Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1198
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Posted: 04 August 2010 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | 6
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Except that strictly speaking, this statement...
QUOTE:
The techniques used in KANE were done for the very first time in film. |
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...is true.
Gregg Toland's experiments with deep-focus and low ceilings go back to WUTHERING HEIGHTS, but the depth of field in KANE was unprecedented. Toland's pan focus style was made up of things used in this film for the first time; new film stocks, lens size, scenes lit with arc lamps meant for Technicolor productions, techniques to reduce glare (magnesium fluoride on the lens), etc. The long-take/mise en scene aesthetic starts here. KANE is the first modern sound film. Welles invented a technique he called the "lightning mix" which connected montage scenes through the soundtrack rather than image ("Merry Christmas....and a Happy New Year!"). Overlapping dialogue to convey a realistic sense of conversation (rather than comically as seen in HIS GIRL FRIDAY or THE FRONT PAGE) is first done in KANE. The scene of Kane finishing Leland's review of Susan's opera debut has more invention in it than a thousand other films. And comparing the narrative form of KANE to THE POWER AND THE GLORY (which I have seen) is so reductive as to be an insult. WATCHMEN is just "Superduperman", right?
Ford, Murnau, Lang, von Sternberg, Renoir are influences, but KANE doesn't look (or sound or tell its story) like anything else; it is the first to look and sound and watch like it does because it was a film made in ways that had never been used before.
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Thanos Kollias Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 June 2004 Location: Greece Posts: 5009
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Posted: 04 August 2010 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | 7
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I'd add Doug Moench's Master of Kung Fu easily in the lists above. 100 sophisticated comic books right there, a good decade before Watchmen.
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Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2710
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Posted: 04 August 2010 at 3:00pm | IP Logged | 8
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A caveat on Master of Kung Fu: Do NOT mistake the recent Marvel MAX mini-series MoKF: Hellfire Apocalypse for the real thing.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36306
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Posted: 04 August 2010 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | 9
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Pete York wrote:
Ford, Murnau, Lang, von Sternberg, Renoir are influences, but KANE doesn't look (or sound or tell its story) like anything else; it is the first to look and sound and watch like it does because it was a film made in ways that had never been used before. |
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Seems we're on the same page, Pete.
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Jeremiah Avery Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 27 December 2008 Location: United States Posts: 2431
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Posted: 04 August 2010 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 10
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I've read interviews in which Eisner, Kirby and other artists and writers from that era convey how influential "Citizen Kane" was on how they told stories in comics, how much potential was untapped. While there are some parts of "Watchmen" I enjoyed, the whole "it's a realistic depiction" notion is offset by Dr. Manhattan (how is a big blue guy "realistic"?). I don't hate the story, but I also don't appreciate being treated like someone riding the short bus for not falling to my knees in praise of it and also due to that I only first read it a few years ago.
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4656
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Posted: 04 August 2010 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | 11
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Matthew McCallum wrote:
A caveat on Master of Kung Fu: Do NOT mistake the recent Marvel MAX mini-series MoKF: Hellfire Apocalypse for the real thing. |
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That thing sure was a disappointment, wasn't it? Moench was really hamstrung by the ridiculous editorial mandate against thought balloons, something the old series made brilliant use of. And it was so decompressed... six issues to tell a story that would have fit in a single Giant-Size Master of Kung-Fu in the old days. Not to mention, a plot that was basically a rehash of several old stories. Too bad.
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Jim Muir Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 26 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1384
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Posted: 04 August 2010 at 3:43pm | IP Logged | 12
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<<KANE doesn't look (or sound or tell its story) like anything else; it is the first to look and sound and watch like it does because it was a film made in ways that had never been used before. >>
It's a well thought out answer and you seem to know your films, but every technique you've listed as 'firsts' can be traced back to earlier productions.
Kane took these unusual, radical and obscure techniques (which had all existed beforehand) but created something wholly different and new with them.
A little bit like Watchmen.
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