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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16661
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | 1
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It's funny to think that the "Uncanny X-Men" was a cult hit at the time, not a mass-market hit, yet. I started reading the series with #122, and loved it. I knew about the team from "Marvel Tean-Up" #4 and a reprint of "X-Men" #3 in the trade paperback collection "Marvel's Greatet Battles" (both featuring the original line-up), but #122 was the first issue I read of the series with the new members. A friend of mine was also a fan of the book, so I had assumed the book was pretty popular with most fans at the time. Then again, the kids on my block all seemed to be into "Nova" when it first was published, and I thought for years that he was a bigger character than he really was, so my environment could skew such perceptions.
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8351
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 2
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Speaking of Secret Wars, it illustrates another way that Bob Harras
was the anti-Shooter. When Bob became EIC, the first thing he did
was quit writing the Avengers, and did not write anything else during
that stint. Not only did Shooter continue writing from time to time, he
wrote 2 major crossovers and forced all of the other writers to account
for them, the Beyonder being the worst part of all.If anyone has needs to wonder if Shooter has an overbearing ego, the
answer is "Secret Wars II".
Edited by Vinny Valenti on 01 July 2011 at 7:17pm
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Paul Gibney
Byrne Robotics Member.
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | 3
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I've known John personally for 35+ years now. I don't claim to have been
an actual witness at any of the events being discussed here, BUT... When
talking to John, we often discuss the events of the day as well as what's
going on in his work. John's version of what happened here hasn't changed
since I first heard it, AS THE EVENTS WERE HAPPENING. I recall his
frustration with having to go back and re-do the already finished Death of
Phoenix story because Shooter had suddenly changed his mind, and that
they were going to kill her off rather than let Shooter have his "tortured for
eternity" ending. This meant that he had to go back and redo pages (for
free, mind you) that had already been approved. I also remember John
telling me (and others) the same Hulk throwing a punch story when that
Spider-man issue came out. As for Shooter's hands-on approach, John
was bemoaning that for years at Marvel. It certainly isn't a new
observation. Now, I don't claim to know Jim Shooter well, having only met
him a few times. I have probably spent less than 8 hours talking to Shooter
in my life, but from what I saw, I have to say that John's versions ring true
for me; Jim's, not so much. Since the Byrne versions have not changed
over the years, but Shooter's appear to have, I know which recollections I'd
bet on.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7049
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | 4
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f anyone has needs to wonder if Shooter has an overbearing ego, the
answer is "Secret Wars II".
**
It sure strikes me that way-- what kind of conceit must one have to even
conceive of forcing your story into EVERYONE else's title.I mean, the thought might cross anyone's mind, but acting upon it and
literally FORCING it where it isn't welcome? Sales on the title were good, so there is that argument. But that's never
the argument that Shooter makes. He wants to be remembered as the
one who "fought for creators' rights" and who "let the creators create".
That's like Michael Jordan wanting to be remembered as a baseball
player.
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Cory Vandernet
Byrne Robotics Member
Henchman
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 861
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 7:50pm | IP Logged | 5
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I'm backing up Paul on this, I remember John being 6+ pages into X-Men 138 when the edict came down from Shooter and how John had to repencil the last part of 137 virtually overnight, and then repencil portions of 138. I also remember being in the Marvel offices with Jim Shooter, Roger Stern, JB and Paul after hours, some monthes later, when the changes to X-Men 137 were mentioned during the conversation, and the chill that suddenly hung over the room until Roger changed the subject. Paul and I saw the original pencils to most of JB's X-Men, FF, and Captain America issues when he lived in town, so from my vantage point Shooter is delusional.
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Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4504
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | 6
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I know my bias when it comes to these types of stories and which side I assume is true, but it is nice to have Paul and Cory help reassure me about my "gut" feeling. Now if I could just contain the newly discovered envy I have for these two gentlemen and their front row tickets to comics over the years. =)
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William T. Byrd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 August 2009
Posts: 209
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 7
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X-MEN didn't have the sales, but it WAS the book people were talking about.
Not just speaking about the Dark Phoenix Saga or Days of Future Past, but the whole collaboration between yourself, Claremont, and Austin, on Uncanny X-Men... Did fans, critics, and peers realize just how special these issues are/were at the time or is it something that was only identifiable in retrospect?
Edited by William T. Byrd on 01 July 2011 at 8:52pm
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7049
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | 8
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Paul: This meant that he had to go back and redo pages (for free, mind you) that had already been approved. (emphasis
added)***
There's a point that is just not getting the proper attention. JB did the changes for free. On time. When he was just getting a
tiny page rate. These are indisputed facts. JB was forced to eat the difference with no compensation-- at a time when
compensation was barely adequate to begin with. Shooter's point of view had no personal-stakes. He was not risking bread on his table when this went down. So who's more likely to remember things as they really happened? Shooter would have you believe the guys who actually suffered in this case have become blurry on the details over the years.
But him? Shooter, the champion of creators' rights, has remained razor sharp and ready to correct all others. It doesn't quite add up.
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Arc Carlton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 April 2009
Location: Peru
Posts: 3493
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| Posted: 01 July 2011 at 10:37pm | IP Logged | 9
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I've never read the Shooter blog.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 02 July 2011 at 3:55am | IP Logged | 10
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This meant that he had to go back and redo pages (for free, mind you) that had already been approved. •• I'd actually forgotten this, until Paul jogged my memory. Yes, indeed! Jim Shooter, the Great Defender of Artists, Widows and Orphans, insisted that the changes be made to X-MEN 137 and 138 WITHOUT PAYMENT to Chris and me, because this was our "mistake" that was being "fixed". Terry lucked out on that one. The pages had not been inked when the changes were ordered, so he got paid for doing his usual job.
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William T. Byrd
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Joined: 04 August 2009
Posts: 209
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| Posted: 02 July 2011 at 7:06am | IP Logged | 11
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Yes, indeed! Jim Shooter, the Great Defender of Artists, Widows and Orphans, insisted that the changes be made to X-MEN 137 and 138 WITHOUT PAYMENT to Chris and me, because this was our "mistake" that was being "fixed".
Did you and Chris finally get payment when they used those pages for Phoenix: The Untold Story?
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Shawn Kane
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 3239
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| Posted: 02 July 2011 at 7:25am | IP Logged | 12
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I've liked Jim Shooter as a writer at various times over the years but I remember reading Secret Wars at 10 years old and thinking "How does the EIC not write these characters properly?" His Colossus, Wolverine, and Johnny Storm were written particularly bad in that limited. He had a pretty weak reason to write the series.
Edited by Shawn Kane on 02 July 2011 at 7:25am
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