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Topic: Jim Shooter: The Origin of the Dark Phoenix Saga Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 04 July 2011 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Just after JB's departure i thought there was a huge drop in quality.

While love Cockrum on is Nightcrawler mini series and thought his original X-Men run was good, i wasn't a fan of his art on the second one, or of his additions, like the lovecraftian Magneto island to the second run. To say nothing of Kitty's costume.

I began to enjoy really the series again with the brood saga at the end during the last few issues of Dave's run.

What for me bought it back to the level of quality it had during JB's day, was the story in japan, drawn by Paul Smith, starring Rogue and Wolverine against Viper and the Silver Samurai. To this day those two issues are still one of my all time favorite X-Men strories.

After that came JRjr, at first i didn't like the changers in his art style, but then we got the story of Rogue in the SHIELD Helicarer, and i loved this story and JRjr's new style began to grow on me more and more. I also loved the dirrection the book took during the JRjr days. The only thing i did hate was Magneto's ridiculous new purple costume with the big M on it. 

After that the book had highs and lows. I enjoyed the artstyle of Marc Silvestri, but not necessarily all the stories in those days,with the split team and the australian stuff.

When Jim Lee came on the book, i loved his style and thought he was the new JB.

Strangely it lasted only until Claremont "leaved " the book. After that i saw a drop in quality even in Jim Lee's art style.

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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 04 July 2011 at 7:41am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Jim Lee left to do the new X-MEN book which, I agree, didn't seem to meet the quality of Lee's UXM.
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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 04 July 2011 at 7:53am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

The first three issues, with Claremont on script, had fantastic Jim Lee art.

After that, and i mean the following month, the art just seemed... sloppy.

Uncomplete layouts with quick inks on it.

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Brian Miller
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Posted: 04 July 2011 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Well, after Claremont left, didn't a lot of the plotting come from Lee's camp? I know JB scripted the first few issues after Claremont left, but I don't remember reading anything that suggested him having any control over the plotting.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 04 July 2011 at 8:51am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Well, after Claremont left, didn't a lot of the plotting come from Lee's camp? I know JB scripted the first few issues after Claremont left, but I don't remember reading anything that suggested him having any control over the plotting.

••

I had virtually no imput or control. My only contribution, really, was insisting that if Bishop (a character ordered created by Marketing!!!) had to be from "an alternate future", he at least be from the same one created by "Days of Future Past".

As most of you probably know, when I plotted that story originally, it was most definitely NOT meant to create a split in the timeline (Hey look! The X-Men FAILED again!!), but Chris managed to make it so by slipping in a couple of captions that actually had nothing whatsoever to do with what I had drawn. As writer, years later, I figured as long as we were already lumbered with one "alternate future", there was absolutely no justification for creating another one!

(My scripting on one of those issues is used by some as "proof" of my being a racist. In one scene, Bobby Drake muses that Scott Summers made a better leader than Storm and, apparently forgetting it was my suggestion that made Storm team leader back when I was still plotting and drawing the book, some chose to pare Iceman's comment down to him thinking Ororo was a poor leader BECAUSE SHE WAS BLACK.)

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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 March 2025 at 1:14am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Okay, THIS was an interesting thread to reread!!!
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 16 March 2025 at 6:19am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Wonderful to revisit after the gift of "Elsewhen". What a circle to have travelled as a fan. There really is nothing else to compare. When has something so hailed and hallowed after years and years of obsessive discussion and celebration been revisited and thoroughly brought back to life-- for no reason other than the fun of it???


THANK YOU.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 March 2025 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

That Dark Phoenix is still a major topic for discussion—and exploitation—almost half a century after the fact is a source of some depression for me.

When I started reading American comics, in the Fifties, the closest they came to excavating the Past would be occasional references to “the last time we fought the Joker.” And those would not actually reference specific stories.

It was really Marvel in the Sixties that laid the groundwork for “continuity” as a vital part of storytelling. Something that got worse and worse as more fans became pros.

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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 19 March 2025 at 3:00pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

There's a kind of "Pandora's Box" quality to continuity.

It really sucked me in as a fan, but it really choked the life out of comics for future generations.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 19 March 2025 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

An editor at DC once said to me that “continuity” means Superman is from Krypton and he will always be from Krypton.

If only it was that simple!

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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 19 March 2025 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

"It really sucked me in as a fan"

--

I'm guessing that you became a fan in the 80s, as did I. In one of my first issues of X-MEN in 1983, Claremont made reference to Dark Phoenix. As the original story was then only about 3 years old, that feels like fair game.

But we're going on 45 years now!!!!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 19 March 2025 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

None of this would be an issue if Chris had just ACCEPTED the story we ended up with. Slim chance. This is the guy who would not let go of the death of Thunderbird!
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