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Bill Collins Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 26 May 2005 Location: England Posts: 11259
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Posted: 27 May 2018 at 1:03am | IP Logged | 1
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`Because you can find Africa on map and Africans next door` Please point out Wakanda to me on the map.
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Michael Sommerville Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 12 April 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 417
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Posted: 27 May 2018 at 2:37am | IP Logged | 2
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As soon as race comes into a discussion it alway comes down to someone bringing up thoughts like white privilege, inherent racism, not understanding the oppressed, Trump. These phrases are the dog whistle for, the people who do not agree are ignorant racists'. No logical argument will ever persuade them there is another point of view.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2294
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Posted: 27 May 2018 at 4:02am | IP Logged | 3
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By the way, I put "social justice" in quotes above because I don't think real social justice is making James Bond or Jimmy Olsen black. Real social justice (in comics at least) would be to give Luke Cage, the Falcon, Black Lightning, and the Vixen all their own comics with the best talent around. And maybe go out of your way to give people like Keith Pollard (a fantastic artist who I last saw at a con waiting for a job) a high profile gig.
Likewise, possibly give minor characters like Red Wolf, El Aguila, Thunderbird, Daughters of the Dragon, White Tiger, etc. a real shot at headlining their own quality comics (pony up some dough for the best creative talent). (I was trying to think of some good minority characters at DC that haven't been given a shot, but all I could think of there were lesbians.)
I'd rather see El Aguila get a shot than see a hispanic Ghost Rider--or a Korean Hulk, or a Chinese Superman, etc. Or--gasp--create some NEW characters!
Edited by Eric Jansen on 27 May 2018 at 4:03am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132538
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Posted: 27 May 2018 at 5:07am | IP Logged | 4
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In an time when there are complaints of "cultural appropriation" it seems absurd that we should even be having this discussion.
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Andy Mokler Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 20 January 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2799
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Posted: 27 May 2018 at 8:26am | IP Logged | 5
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I'm still waiting for an El Dorado comic book and/or movie. At least they made an action figure. :)
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14825
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Posted: 27 May 2018 at 9:29am | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
As soon as race comes into a discussion it alway comes down to someone bringing up thoughts like white privilege, inherent racism, not understanding the oppressed, Trump. |
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I struggled with the concept of white privilege, literally a decade before I ever heard the phrase. It's something I had difficulty articulating to my white friends, this awareness, even in the absence of overt and intentional racism, that I was not white and treated differently. My other non-white friends immediately understood and struggled with the same thing. Feel free to think it's only a catchphrase and a dog whistle, but you'd be absolutely wrong.
QUOTE:
No logical argument will ever persuade them there is another point of view. |
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Oh, we're perfectly aware there's another point of view. It's been the prevailing one, and the one that needs to change.
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 27 May 2018 at 10:18am | IP Logged | 7
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Wow, this one jumped the panther, kinda.
Thus, my discussions.
ITEM: I know that the movies are a separate entity from the novels, and Mr. Fleming's character disappeared a long time ago. My thoughts are still to adhere to the source material unless there's a reason to change it. I've never read the Bond books, so I don't know if Bond was ever specified to be a white man; it's not a typical description in most novels I read. The assumption is that the character is white unless specified otherwise (good or bad is for another discussion at another time.)
Daniel Craig, to me, was the "breakaway" from James Bond; blond, older looking, and not particularly handsome. YMMV, of course.
Does Idris Elba deserve a turn as a super spy? Elba deserves whatever role he wants, I think, and I believe he'd be a box office smash. In the Bond-verse... I know there were a lot of other double-o's. Is there one that would suit Elba? Or... crazy as it may sound... what about a Felix Leiter movie, with a guest appearance by Bond? The reverse of a lot of existing Bond films, but that could work. I have seen Leiter both black and white on screen... was this specified in the books?
ITEM: Nicolas Cage as the Black Panther - to the point being made, I am a fan of keeping the original characters as they were designed. I would enjoy a white Black Panther about as much as I would enjoy a black Human Torch (which is to say, not at all.)
I recall Secret Wars and one of the points that Jim Shooter made (intentionally or not). Reed Richards is fixing Iron Man's armor, with the gauntlet off, and Jim Rhodes - the current Iron Man at the time - says something like "Bet you're surprised to see that there's a black man in the armor?" and Reed answers, "Not really. I assumed there was a a man inside."
ITEM: Nicolas Cage in that specific role... eh. Cage does some parts well, some not so well. I don't think he makes a good action/adventure hero. (I think of Benjamin Gates as a scientific adventurer, which I think Cage played to the hilt.) If there were a laid back super hero, he might do well at that, but the ones that I think of that qualify - Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate - are a bit higher class than I think of Cage playing. Maybe he could play Johnny Thunder... maybe Dr. Mid-Nite... maybe Dr. Occult.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132538
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Posted: 27 May 2018 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 8
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I don't recall Fleming specifying that Bond was White. But he didn't have to. The bulk of his audience was White, and would "cast" accordingly. I can't imagine non-White readerd doing anything else, especially in context. I'll say it again: Black actors deserve their own characters.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2294
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Posted: 27 May 2018 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 9
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Here is Ian Fleming’s description of James Bond from the novel From Russia With Love-- Name: Bond, James. Height: 183cm, weight: 76 kilograms; slim build; eyes: blue; hair: black; scar down right cheek and on left shoulder; signs of plastic surgery on back of right hand; all-round athlete; expert pistol shot, boxer, knife-thrower; does not use disguises. In other books, Fleming described Bond as looking like musician Hoagy Carmichael. And Fleming worked closely with the artist to design Bond for the comic strip. Here are those pics-- ![](uploads/EricJansen/2018-05-27_124437_carmichael_hoagy_headshot.jpg) ![](uploads/EricJansen/2018-05-27_124455_Fleming007impression.jpg)
Actually, Daniel Craig might be the most accurate Hoagy-ish Bond yet, though Pierce Brosnan might be closer to the drawing.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 27 May 2018 at 12:51pm
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Bill Collins Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 26 May 2005 Location: England Posts: 11259
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Posted: 27 May 2018 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | 10
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That drawing has a Peter Cushing quality to it.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132538
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Posted: 27 May 2018 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 11
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Actually, Daniel Craig might be the most accurate Hoagy-ish Bond yet, though Pierce Brosnan might be closer to the drawing.••• A lesson I have learned over the long years is not to use "actually" when expressing an opinion.
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Steve De Young Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 01 April 2008 Location: United States Posts: 3492
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Posted: 27 May 2018 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | 12
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"White" is also a bizarre social construct. And all related structures, like "white privilege" are therefore likewise troublesome if you have any sense of history. The Irish, and Italians for example, and other immigrants from Southern Europe, were not considered 'white' for most of US history. Roman Catholics were not considered 'Christian' for most of US history, and still aren't in much of the South.
When I was growing up, I never had a sense of being 'white'. I was Dutch, because my grandparents immigrated from the Netherlands. My dad said all kinds of racist things all the time. But I never remember him making a single racist comment against non-whites. All of the slurs he used were about the Irish, the Italians, the English, the Polish (especially the Polish), because those immigrant communities were the ones competing with Dutch immigrants in the first half of the 20th century for jobs in this country. I know a Catholic priest whose parents couldn't get married in the Church he pastors because despite both of them being Roman Catholic, one was Dutch and one was Polish, so that was considered a 'mixed marriage'.
This 'white' identity has no actual culture behind it. Its just a way of generalizing about a whole bunch of disparate groups of people without a shared history or culture, or even language. This is why its so hard for people in this thread to pin down 'why is it important for this character to be white'? Because 'white' isn't anything. Rather, its important for this character to be the son of working class Irish immigrants in Chicago, or to have come out of the Jewish community in Brooklyn, or from a line that traces its way back to the colonists in the deep South. The actual history and culture of these characters is important, not their melanin count. And the same is true of 'black' characters, or 'brown' ones. There's a different between being Chinese, Korean, Japanese, or Thai. There's a difference depending on when your family emigrated, if they ever did. These broad labels like 'white', 'black' and 'Asian' are themselves basically racist in considering these differences unimportant.
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