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Peter Hicks
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2029
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| Posted: 09 May 2025 at 5:51am | IP Logged | 1
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Laura Loomer is already freaking out, calling him a "Woke Marxist Pope."*************** Only in America do evangelical Christians engage in bizarre double think about the “Neo Marxism” of their faith and how to avoid it.
Since the Pope is infallible to Catholics, it will be interesting going forward to see how JD Vance tries to thread the needle of his political agenda being in conflict with what the Pope directs him to do.
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3182
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| Posted: 09 May 2025 at 7:55am | IP Logged | 2
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Right wing Catholics like Vance have it all figured out. As far as they're concerned, Catholics with progressive beliefs about ministering to gay people or ordaining women should leave the religion entirely. However, when they disagree with the pope, not to mention actual doctrine, on matters such as the death penalty, warfare and basic human compassion, the pope is dismissed for lacking the plausible doctrinal insight of the average radio talk show host. It's a rare conservative Republican Catholic who walks the walk out of the faith entirely. Their version of threading the needle is dismissing the pope.
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ron bailey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 October 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 1219
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| Posted: 09 May 2025 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 3
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Two events I never thought would happen in my lifetime and they both came from right here in Chicago ...
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134283
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| Posted: 09 May 2025 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 4
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Catholics with progressive beliefs about ministering to gay people or ordaining women should leave the religion entirely. ••• Couple of topics there on which the Bible isn’t even a little bit vague. Homosexuals should be killed (Leviticus 29:13), and women should shut up in church (1 Corinthians 13:34-35).
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14887
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| Posted: 09 May 2025 at 3:00pm | IP Logged | 5
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Catholicism has many, many faults but Sola Scriptura and Biblical literalism are not among them. Especially with regard to the Old Testament, Jesuits teachers will be the first to tell you that not everything is meant to be read literally and the historical context that the Scripture was written does matter.
With regard to the Biblical “clobber passages”, the Bible is only clear if you think the Bible was written in English. In Hebrew, the literal translation is:
“And a man who shall lie with a male (the) lyings of a woman has done (a) taboo (thing).”
And even that translation is not as clear as you think it might be, because “the lyings of a woman” is an obscure linguistic construction and the Jewish and secular scholars can’t come to terms with what is intended. Some specific act is bad, but whether this is a prohibition on male-male sex, being on the receiving end of anal penetration, incest, or some other specific act is unclear. That is also setting aside that these were rules for Israelites specifically.
Similarly with regard to Paul’s supposed condemnation of homosexuality, he creates a word arsenokoitai “man-bedders”, ostensibly a parallel to the Leviticus passages, when there were pre-existing Greek words for homosexual sex. Maybe Paul was condemning homosexual sex or some specific homosexual act, but it’s not clear.
And all of that ignores same-sex relations between women.
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Phil Frances
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 356
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| Posted: 09 May 2025 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 6
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JB - I find myself wondering if the Cardinals chose an American BECAUSE of the Anti-Christ in the White House.
Well I had similar thoughts myself... If there is such a thing as a nation's soul, perhaps Leo XIV will be able to preserve it while the rest of the world laughs (and alternately despairs ) at Trumpf's efforts.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134283
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| Posted: 09 May 2025 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | 7
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I love the way Believers jump thru hoops to make a document written thousands of years ago reflect Modern Times. Oh, and same-sex relationships between women is condemned in the Bible. (Romans) Just not as vigorously as between men. Women, after all, are just chattle and don’t really count.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6871
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| Posted: 09 May 2025 at 3:21pm | IP Logged | 8
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Michael: Jesuits teachers will be the first to tell you that not everything is
meant to be read literally and the historical context that the Scripture was
written does matter.
***
Catholics. A religion where the smart ones argue that the true moral rules of
the entire universe finally arrived in crap transcription, in a tiny backwater
desert on an unimportant planet in what amounts to a few days ago, in the
life of the cosmos.
As a former Catholic, I continually ask myself: how did I fall for that?
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3711
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| Posted: 09 May 2025 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 9
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Maybe the Bible just wasn't down with anal, but hand stuff is a-ok?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134283
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| Posted: 09 May 2025 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | 10
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As a former Catholic, I continually ask myself: how did I fall for that?••• Same way I fell for the Church of England drivel, even tho my father was a Buddhist. We were living with my mother’s parents, who were deeply CofE, and the pomp and circumstance just oozed into my brain. It wasn’t until I was 15 that I began to break free. (Church of England—Catholic but with different spelling.)
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14887
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| Posted: 09 May 2025 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | 11
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Oh, and same-sex relationships between women is condemned in the Bible. (Romans)
———
Not explicitly. Paul describes woman exchanging natural intercourse for unnatural, and men giving up natural intercourse with women, and the latter resorting to shameless acts with each other. It explicitly calls out men doing things with each other, but doesn’t specify what “unnatural intercourse” is. Taking into account that Paul considered celibacy preferable and sex for purposes other than procreation bad, “unnatural” encompasses a lot of things.
And reading the passage in its entirety, it’s not so much a proclamation against lesbianism as Paul calling pagans a bunch of perverts because they chose to worship idols instead of God.
QUOTE:
| 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Their females exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the males, giving up natural intercourse with females, were consumed with their passionate desires for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. |
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Edited by Michael Roberts on 09 May 2025 at 7:18pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134283
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| Posted: 09 May 2025 at 7:27pm | IP Logged | 12
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Paul describes woman exchanging natural intercourse for unnatural, and men giving up natural intercourse with women, and the latter resorting to shameless acts with each other. It explicitly calls out men doing things with each other, but doesn’t specify what “unnatural intercourse” is. Taking into account that Paul considered celibacy preferable and sex for purposes other than procreation bad, “unnatural” encompasses a lot of things.••• Don’t trip on that hoop!
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