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Steven Brake
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Posted: 09 May 2025 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Michael Penn wrote: One question is what is the date any of the plays were written?

SB replied: Yes, this isn't absolutely settled. 

Michael Penn wrote:  A different one is does the admittedly problematic dating of the plays create a secondary problem in terms of who could've been the author?

SB replied: No. Stylistic analysis of the plays credited to Shakespeare prove - or, if that's too strong a word, strongly indicate - that they are the work of the same person, often working in collaboration with another writer. So the first three parts of Henry VI are written by Shakespeare and Christopher Marlowe (the latter now officially credited by The New Oxford Shakespeare), Macbeth contains work by Thomas Middleton,  John Fletcher co-wrote Henry VIII (or "All Is True) and The Two Noble Kinsmen.

As posted before, the role of collaboration compounds the difficulties in arguing that someone other than Will of Stratford was the author, or co-author, of the plays attributed to him in the First Folio.
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Houston Mitchell
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Posted: 10 May 2025 at 1:10am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

If Shakespeare collaborated with another writer, how do we know how much Shakespeare contributed and how much the other writer contributed? Maybe the other guy wrote 98% of it. How do we know?
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 10 May 2025 at 2:56am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Houston: If Shakespeare collaborated with another writer, how do we know how much Shakespeare contributed and how much the other writer contributed? Maybe the other guy wrote 98% of it. How do we know?

**

There is no actual answer to that question, Houston.

Working in the TV writing business, I know what it's like to have a project reach audiences after going through many writers. I can speak from experience of how something can become successful for both the writers and the audience in a way that nobody is sure who has the best claim to any particular scene, much less the overall work. And there is a 100% chance that none of our friends, much less strangers born 100 years from now could ever tell either.

Watch one of the writer's room scenes from The Dick Van Dyke show and then imagine that scene going on for 8 hours a day, 5 to 6 days a week for two weeks for an hours' worth of storytelling. Then add another week of one writer putting it together, then two to three weeks of rewrites from one to two other writers.

And look at the Sir Thomas Moore manuscript if you don't think that's how it was done in Shakespeare's day.

Marlowe's plays read like the work of a committee. Several of Shakespeare's plays read like the work of a committee. Some Stratfordians put great stock in their "scientific" "stylometric" methods for recognizing the work of different writers-- but their methods often have massive question marks like not being able to recognize HAMLET as being by Shakespeare. It's bad science and magical thinking.

Anyone who says they can tell who wrote what in a collaborative piece is selling snake oil. It is easy to be convinced you can tell-- but it is a very different thing to arrive at the truth of the matter.

Edited by Mark Haslett on 10 May 2025 at 3:18am
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Houston Mitchell
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Posted: 10 May 2025 at 8:41pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Mark: As a writer myself, that's what I thought. I mean, for all we know, they said "Hey Shakespeare, want to write a couple of words?" as a lark. I'm not sure how anyone can say Shakespeare was the writer if they also admit he had co-writers, because maybe the co-writers did 95% of the writing.   
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 10 May 2025 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Houston Mitchell wrote: I'm not sure how anyone can say Shakespeare was the writer if they also admit he had co-writers.

SB replied: As earlier posted, the role of collaboration is one of the most powerful rebuttals of the argument that someone else other than Shakespeare wrote the plays ascribed to him. Why did Nashe, Middleton, Beaumont, Fletcher etc keep quiet?  Threats? From whom? Or did the Stratford lad somehow fool them all into thinking he was the author?
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 11 May 2025 at 3:53am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Houston: for all we know, they said "Hey Shakespeare, want to write a couple of words?" as a lark.
**
What always strikes me as funny about these authorship debates? People talk like the past left us a clean audit trail.

But when you're in the thick of a creative process — especially a collaborative one — no one’s taking minutes. No one's documenting authorship percentages. Half the time, the only person who thinks they remember who wrote a line is the one who didn't. Attribution becomes mythology before the ink dries. I've lived it.

And sure, maybe some name gets attached to the final product. Maybe it's the guy who had the best penmanship. Or the one who picked up the bill at the Mermaid Tavern. Or the one who wasn’t there at all, but had a good story about how he was.

And the thing about Shakespeare's "collaborators" that gets me excited about solving this mystery is that all of those who worked in the 1580's and 1590's knew each other. They are documented as having worked together with Oxford, with Henslowe, around the Blackfriars, around Fisher's Folly,

...but NEVER with Will Shaksper of Stratford.
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 11 May 2025 at 5:52am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: And the thing about Shakespeare's "collaborators" that gets me excited about solving this mystery is that all of those who worked in the 1580's and 1590's knew each other. They are documented as having worked together with Oxford, with Henslowe, around the Blackfriars, around Fisher's Folly...but NEVER with Will Shaksper of Stratford.

SB replied: Which "collaborators" from the 1580s and 1590s are you referring to? 

What details are there of any of them having written with De Vere? 

Why did none of them speak out when the work they'd produced with him was falsely credited to Will of Stratford?

Why did none of them leave private written accounts confirming their co-authorship with Shakespeare and complaining that it was being falsely credited to Will of Stratford?

It's odd that Alternative Authorship theorists get excited about exploring the role of collaboration, as it pretty much explodes the basis of their argument that someone other than William Shakespeare of Stratford-Upon-Avon wrote the plays that were credited to him in the First Folio.
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 11 May 2025 at 7:50am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Why did none of them speak out when the work they'd produced with him was falsely credited to Will of Stratford?
--

Weren't most, if not all, of them dead by the time The First Folio was published? 

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Steven Brake
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Posted: 11 May 2025 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Thomas Middleton died 1627, and John Fletcher died in 1625.

Even before being collected in the First Folio, the plays were being performed by The Lord Chamberlain's Men, then The King's Men, with Shakespeare being recognised as their author. And yet none of De Vere's supposed collaborators - I'm still interested to learn who they were meant to have been - left records like a letter or a diary entry puzzling over why the Stratford man was unfairly reaping the glory.

As post above, and earlier, the role of collaboration in writing the plays is fatal to Alternative Authorship theorists. 
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 11 May 2025 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Petter: Why did none of them speak out when the work they'd produced
with him was falsely credited to Will of Stratford?
--
Weren't most, if not all, of them dead by the time The First Folio was
published?
**

There is no record of anyone ever attributing any plays to William of
Stratford in his lifetime.

The folio came long after he was dead and did not provoke anyone to
confirm or deny or remark in any way about Stratford Will being a writer of
any kind. Years continue to pass before the first curious Shakespeare
devotees consider looking for a poet’s cradle in Stratford.

The record is clear that “Shakespeare” was known as a pen name for a
hidden poet or poets during the grain merchant’s lifetime (Joseph Hall Hall
wrote in 1596 that he wished the hidden poet of Venus & Adonis would
“write alone”)

Though the writers whose work we identify in Shakespeare from the 1590’s
were indeed all dead or retired by 1600, there is no question of “speaking
out” about Shaxper getting credit — because there is no evidence anyone
ever mistook him for the author.

Consider:
13 Shakespearean plays were printed during 1594-1600.

The six published during 1594-97 were anonymous

In 1598, the name first appeared on a play (as SHAKE-SPEARE),

Then the great issuance of dramatic works began, until 1600 when the
floodgates shut- just as the failed Essex Rebellion put Shakespeare’s work
in the context of treason with a performance of Richard ll.

After Essex, All the connected performers were executed, but Shaxper?
Shaxper wasn’t even brought in for questioning— and why would he be? He
had no connection to it in any way. He didn’t write it.

1603, After Southampton’s liberation, the corrupt Hamlet Q1 was published

1604, upon Oxford’s death in 1604 came Hamlet Q2, twice as long.

In 1608-09 a brief flurry of printings included King Lear, Pericles and Troilus
and Cressida, but these were not from the author’s manuscripts.

With Hamlet Q2 in 1604, all authoritative printings of yet-unpublished plays
ceased for eighteen years until Othello (1622)

The businessman William Shaksper of Stratford upon Avon lodged in 1604
with a maker of women’s headdresses — the last indication of him as living
in London at all. Traditional biographies conjecture Shakespeare’s acting
career ended in 1604, when he returned home to Stratford.

After 1604, there was nothing more from “Shakespeare” published with any
appearance of proper authorization for nearly twenty years, although the
reputed author was alive and active during twelve of these years.

The claim that Shaxper of Stratford was taking credit for writing anything
finds no basis in fact, no evidence that can confirm it ever took place, and
would contradict facts that are established elsewhere.

Edited by Mark Haslett on 11 May 2025 at 12:21pm
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 11 May 2025 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: There is no record of anyone ever attributing any plays to William of Stratford in his lifetime.

SB replied: Francis Meres attributes twelve plays to William Shakespeare in his Palladis Tamia which was published in 1598. He also separately commends De Vere, making it difficult to believe that the former was a pseudonym also being used by the latter.

In 1607, Sir George Buc, Master Of The Revels, licensed King Lear for publication and attributed it to William Shakespeare.

In 1611, John Davies described Shakespeare as "our English Terence" in his The Scourge Of Folly.

Mark Haslett wrote: Then the great issuance of dramatic works began, until 1600 when the floodgates shut - just as the failed Essex Rebellion put Shakespeare’s work in the context of treason with a performance of Richard ll. After Essex, All the connected performers were executed.

SB replied: No they weren't. Not only were none of the The Lord Chamberlain's Men punished for performing Richard II the day before Essex's Rebellion, but they performed for Elizabeth I the day before his execution. 

As far as I know, there's no record of the play that they performed, but Anthony Burgess suggested that it would have been quite in keeping with Elizabeth's sardonic humour for her to have commanded another performance of Richard II.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 11 May 2025 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Sorry, Petter-- I made an error that is probably being noted by the Stratfordian-on-ignore here--

Supporters of Robert Devereux, Earl of Essex, hoping to stir public sentiment against Queen Elizabeth I, paid the Lord Chamberlain’s Men (Shakespeare’s company) to perform Richard II — specifically the deposition scene where a legitimate monarch is overthrown — the day before their failed rebellion (February 7, 1601).

Those who performed Richard II in support of the Essex Rebellion were brought in and interrogated about their role in the treason, but not executed.

No effort at all was made to find or interrogate the author of the play-- though Elizabeth herself is quoted as saying "No you not, I am Richard II?" in a complaint about how the play itself was perceived.

In Elizabethan and Jacobean England, writers absolutely faced brutal consequences for politically sensitive material. The idea that a mere commoner could write incendiary plays about the fall of kings, have them staged before rebellions, and walk away untouched defies the historical pattern. Thomas Kyd, Christopher Marlowe, John Stubbs and Ben Jonson all faced brutal prosecution for their works, though none of them had a play performed in connection with a rebellion.

What made Shaksper special?

He never wrote any plays.
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