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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134237
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Posted: 02 May 2025 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 1
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JB's theory that the name came from the comedians to have a recognizable brand for the public is also something believable.••• From the publishers. Don’t know where you got “comedians” from.
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Stéphane Garrelie Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 05 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 4239
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Posted: 02 May 2025 at 10:59am | IP Logged | 2
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Yep. I was refering to this 2021 post, that i paste:
*******John Byrne, from "The Stratford Man" thread, 25 January 2021, page 9 *********
Even simpler: De Vere used no pen name. The Work was created for the entertainment of his peers, who knew who he was. But the Work also “trickled down” to the public theater, and largely out of Oxford’s control. The Work proved enormously popular, and producers and printers wanted to mark the “brand” so audiences would know what to look for. Enter Shaxsper. By his own effort or by election (by Jonson?) he becomes the face of the Work.* The first printer to use the name, tho, wants to make sure everyone knows this bumpkin from Stratford is not the Author and adds a wink and a nod to the title page, spelling the name phonetically and with a hyphen, Shake-speare. As previously noted, to a savvy audience, the second S being lower case would indicate a false name. _________ * A little too much so, perhaps. Hence the “upstart crow”. ************************************************************ ********************* Having read the 15 pages (just yours and Mark posts, and that was already a lot, but it was to give personalised answers in the present discussion), my memory only kept the idea that it was written by de Vere to entertain his friends, that a troupe of comedians got it in a way or another. AND THIS IS WHERE, my memory got it wrong: i had the idea you said they branded it to make the plays recognisable as from the same author for the public, and that the editor simply adopted that brand.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 02 May 2025 at 5:27pm
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Stéphane Garrelie Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 05 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 4239
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Posted: 02 May 2025 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 3
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No, actually, it is a few pages earlier, page 4.i paste your post:
*******John Byrne, from "The Stratford Man" thread, 17 January 2021, page 2 ************************
Let's assume for a moment that the works were, in fact, produced by a peer of the realm. Someone who did not want his name associated with them once they found their way out into the world beyond the courtly audiences for which they were written. Since that peer, Edward De Vere, was the ward and son-in-law of William Cecil, Lord Burghley, the most powerful man in Elizabeth's court, and someone who would himself have been embarrassed to have De Vere's name connected to the public theater, no one would have been in any kind of rush to "out" De Vere. But the Works were proving very popular, and theater producers and publishers needed a "brand" to identify this profitable commodity. (The Works were first publlshed anonymously.) The concept of someone serving as a "front" was known in Elizabethan times, as it is today. And there was this minor theatrical person, from Stratford, who could easily be persuaded to lend his name to publication. De Vere would never protest, of course, and the theaters and printers could continue to make money off the Works. When the name is first used, it becomes "Shake-speare", a not uncommon variant, given the wide range of spelling of even the most common words in those days. Theatrical tradition of the time had the hyphen followed by a lower case letter (as opposed to "Smith-Jones" for instance) indicating a false name. Just a coincidence, perhaps, or perhaps something to cue the literate readers of the time that the name was, as suggested, merely a "brand". Note, no conspiracies needed. Just people trying to make money while keeping out of trouble. Heminge and Condell have a slightly shaky connection to the Stratford Man. He leaves them commemorative rings in his will, but the bequest is written between the lines, and in a different hand. A "ret-con" perhaps, to shore up their claim to be the representatives of the Author? And why does the First Folio contain a dedication that refers to the Author as if he's dead, seven years before Straford Will shuffled off this mortal coil? ************************************************************ So, you could still have thought of the publishers, but since it was associated with the theater producers, i got the idea that the troupe of comedians, either its head or collegially, got the idea.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 02 May 2025 at 11:59am
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6830
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Posted: 02 May 2025 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 4
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I once held as you do, Stephane, that it’s all unsolvable so what’s to be done?
I no longer find that position defensible.
If you took my “thought experiment” on its own terms, you should poke holes in it using details that reflect the realities of the way Shakespeare’s name and the connection of it to Stratford happened.
My presentation is accurate. And being so demonstrates how ludicrous it is to argue that the evidence points to the Stratford man. Almost all of the evidence points away from Stratford. All of it fit together nicely when we suppose the author is someone else.
Sorting out who the real author may be has its challenges, but it becomes a worthy endeavor once one admits there is a hidden author (or authors) at work.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6830
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Posted: 02 May 2025 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 5
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Stephane: Having read the 15 pages (just yours and Mark posts, and that was already a lot, but it was to give personalised answers in the present discussion), **
WOW.
I hope it was at least fun or rewarding in its own way?
Thanks for the effort!
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6830
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Posted: 02 May 2025 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | 6
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Stephane: Can we take seriously the epigrams that, in Shakespeare's time or soon after his death, seem to doubt he is the author? Why not, but it is not the same than the serious doubts of the last alf of the XVIIIth century and even less than the structured attacks we have since the XIXth century. I am aware of nothing more than those, but if you are speaking of something else, please tell.
**
Hold on right there.
To answer the second part briefly, yes, I believe I am speaking of claims which you are not referring to and would be happy to point you towards.
But before we go there, let’s examine your first point.
You suggest the published doubts From the day are less serious than anti- Stratfordian claims made hundreds of years later. Is that correct?
I would like to answer with a small question.
What possible reason would anyone have to publish claims that Shakespeare was a pen name if it was not so?
And, if I may, one more question: why didn’t anyone anywhere at any time present even a week counter argument to these claims in the day?
One thing that we do know about the Stratford man is that he was petty and litigious. He paid handsomely for a coat of arms, which he did not really deserve. So, a third question: Would such a man really be silent in defending the honor of his life’s work?
I am not trying to be evasive, but I think the foundation of your question is more important than my answers listing all of the people who claimed in print to know something about the hidden author behind the Shakespeare pen name.
Edited by Mark Haslett on 02 May 2025 at 1:35pm
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Stéphane Garrelie Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 05 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 4239
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Posted: 02 May 2025 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 7
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If the Stratford man is who you think he is he would act as you say. But that's the whole question. Someone smarter may be more careful about his public persona than in things he assumes will stay private. Actually, a smart Shakespeare could be both a ferocious businessman and someone who built his author persona in a smarter way. But once again you point to what goes against the possibility the Stratford man is the author. I am not arguing that problems and doubts exist. I said it is a tradition. It may be built on wind, but as long as there's no proof the author is one of the other candidates, or even someone unknown, the anteriority and even more the tradition itself are reasons enough to, if we really want to propose an identity for the author, stick to this one. There's no need for other uncertain candidates. It is legit to look for it, and it became a part of the legend. It's interesting, it may be fun, but it is not serious until proved right.
We can also take the works for themselves and the biography of the Stratford man as a legend. It is a legendary tradition, that may be the truth or not.
And an allusion (particularly if it is humorous but even if it isn't) differes of an argumented theory.
Did Homer exist? Is the Sir Thomas Malory who wrote Le Morte Darthur, the one Sir Thomas Malory of Newbold Revel proposed by PJC Field? That sort of thing is nothing new. There's a tradition in some cases, a serious candidate proposed by scholars in others, sometime with a solid and scientific argumentation, but no definitive conclusion. All we can say is maybe. This is believable or not. But in the end it doesn't matter as much as the work itself. And until we get a definitive proof, we have to say that we don't know for sure. We have to be honest and underline the weaknesses of all the cases. Speculation is only speculation.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 02 May 2025 at 5:40pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134237
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Posted: 02 May 2025 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | 8
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It should be noted that there is no record of Stratford Will having involved himself in the printing and publishing of his works. Odd, in someone concerned with protecting his “identity.”
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6830
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Posted: 02 May 2025 at 6:43pm | IP Logged | 9
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Stephane: It's interesting, it may be fun, but it is not serious until proved right.
**
I can only answer that it is quite lucky for us all that historians and detectives and scientists do not approach problems with this attitude.
When something is "built on wind" then it is not serious to continue to believe it.
To invent excuses for evidence that contradicts the wind-built thesis is also not serious.
The facts are this:
The works began to appear in the 1580's, anonymously.
In 1593, a poem appeared with "William Shakespeare" on the dedication page (not the title page). It was an mytho-erotic poem, dedicated to the Earl of Southampton-- a 19 year old boy with no independence to "patronize" anyone.
This erotic-allegory of the queen was sanctioned for publication by the Archbishop of Canterbury who never sanctioned any other secular works and never met the man from Stratford.
Then, in 1598, the same name was connected to many of the previously anonymous plays.
The name appeared as "Shake-speare" with a hyphen, a hyphen that emphasized the "spear-shaking" as many other pen names of the day did. Shaksper from Stratford never used a hyphen.
At that very time, poets began writing explicite accusations that "Shakespeare" was a pen name.
18 years later, the man from Stratford dies without anyone ever writing in any context that he was a writer of any kind-- or, conversely, that the writer of those plays and poems was from Warwickshire.
7 years after that, in 1623, the Folio comes out as the first context of any kind that connects the words "Avon" in one poem and "Stratford" in a different one-- with the name "Shakespeare." But, read honestly, these unconnected words do not provide any basis for locating the author in Stratford Upon Avon.
And no one did. It was still many more years before anyone went to Stratford upon Avon looking for the author.
When they did, they found no witnesses who could confirm that the author lived there. Not even his family knew of this famous legacy. The monument to Shakespeare in the church was not as we find it today-- it had not quill, no piece of paper.
Then, many years in the utter void of any information about the author of these works, the legend of "the swan of avon" settled on the town. The details were added to the monument at unknown times. The legend took on the weight of fact-- without ever connecting to fact.
You would not dispute any of this, I think.
You couldn't really.
What it presents is a clear narrative of a body of work appearing anonymously, then being branded with a pen-name which people did not take seriously at the time. Then, years after the fact, the pen name was connected to a real man.
But, if I understand you, you would not let it sway you that it's "serious" to doubt the traditional attribution.
I don't mean to sound rude, but I just don't understand how you arrive at that conclusion.
Edited by Mark Haslett on 02 May 2025 at 6:55pm
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6830
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Posted: 02 May 2025 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | 10
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Giving your position some more thought, Stephane, it seems another way to answer you perhaps might be to argue for all the value that interpreting the plays as the work of a courtly-connected hidden poet can provide.
Without attempting to, doesn't that hypothetically suggest the value of decoupling the works from the traditionally supposed author who cannot have been writing about a court that he had no access to?
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Stéphane Garrelie Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 05 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 4239
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Posted: 02 May 2025 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | 11
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Mmm... i think you don't get my point.The man from Stratford doesn't matter: it is a legend linked to the works. It matters only as a tradition.
What matters is to not substitute to it another false story, a new dogma.
What we must do is to present the hypotheses in underlining the weaknesses as much as the strengths of each one.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 02 May 2025 at 9:46pm
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