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ron bailey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 October 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 1284
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| Posted: 03 July 2025 at 11:58am | IP Logged | 1
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Can we have that be the heartwarming bookend to this thread? I try to stay away from discussing these kinds of "behind the scenes" topics because there is no way to really know the truth and I find it really none of my concern as just a fan of the work anyway, but wow, considering the unfortunate negativity of how this thread started I would loooove to cap it on this generous, magnanimous gesture from one professional to another. We don't hear nearly enough of that.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134670
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| Posted: 03 July 2025 at 12:05pm | IP Logged | 2
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How do the rest of you feel?
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 31638
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| Posted: 03 July 2025 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 3
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Doesn’t matter to me. You started the thread and had a reason for doing so.
I don’t think anyone was trying to dump on Dave or anything. Indeed, most
here, including you, are fans of his work. Also not sure if we’ll ever have an
actual (factual) reason Dave felt that way towards you. I don’t think it’s bad
to talk about, tho.
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Jason K Fulton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 778
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| Posted: 03 July 2025 at 12:43pm | IP Logged | 4
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I feel like this is common in every profession, and it comes down to "Hey, I could have done that too". And maybe they could have - but they didn't. That's not the fault of the person that DID pull it off.
I am also not surprised that creative / artistic people would create scenarios in their head of what they think happened. I've been reading JB's comics and interview and letters pages and forum posts for 40 years (jesus christ, 40 years) - your point of view has always been consistent re: interactions with other creators, and the other side generally hasn't. So why put stock in the side that keeps changing the story?
Anyhow, RIP Dave Cockrum.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134670
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| Posted: 03 July 2025 at 12:51pm | IP Logged | 5
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I have long suspected that Dave’s ire focused on me because he could not bring himself to vent against Archie Goodwin. It was Archie who removed Dave from UNCANNY, not nearly as voluntarily as Dave would later portray it, but Archie was beloved by all.* Better to blame me for something of which I was literally unaware until decades later. (Archie offered me the X-MEN gig saying Dave understood the book needed to go monthly if it was to survive, and so left by his own choice. It was as recently as a decade ago that Terry filled me in on what really happened.) _____ * In all the years I knew Archie, I was aware of only one person who spoke ill of him. And to that guy I pointed out that all his Bad Archie stories had one thing in common: him!
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Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4259
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| Posted: 03 July 2025 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | 6
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What got me on the X-Men was both the stories and the art. Chris' writing of what you ploted together and your art inked by Terry.That's when i came aboard. When i got the occasion, i saw the "new X-Men" issues of Dave's first run. That was "what came before" alf archeology, alf hidden treasure. I prefered your work, and the stories Chris did with you, but i liked it. The two red dots in Cyclops visor were in my eyes a stylistic trait, like the way Michael Golden draw Iron Man's repulsors in the Avengers Annual he did with Chris. I loved that hidden treasure, but thought the series had improved with you. That was natural, you and Chris built higher on a solid basis. Then you left and Dave came back. Without the red dots. Visualy, i felt he had renonced, or were pushed to, to something that was part of his visual identity. I saw, and that may be subjective, a matter of taste, his second take as neither as good as yours or his first one. Particularly when he gave us Kitty's awful costume. Neither saw one as ugly excepted Wonderman's green WCA one with the bottle in the back. That may have a part in my dissatisfaction.. but Chris and Dave next did the Brood saga, and i was fond of that part and liked Dave's art there, and he left and Paul Smith came aboard, that i enjoyed almost as much as you. And Dave did his Nightcrawler mini-series, that i've always considered his best work, and that's one of the comics i've the most reread, and still a favorite.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 03 July 2025 at 1:34pm
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3840
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| Posted: 03 July 2025 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | 7
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I'm in general of the mindset of not speaking ill of the dead, but- you and Dave are both real people and this obviously is something that's troubled you on a personal level
- you and Dave are also both key figures in the creation of comics history (tha's also is a massive chunk of pop culture)
In some way, this is sort of like if Paul Gaugin could give us a response to Van Gogh's letters (I mean that comparison seriously). I think if the rest of us can stop from making comments on Dave or Patty's character, there's genuine value in a thread like this.
Edited by Dave Kopperman on 03 July 2025 at 2:30pm
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12954
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| Posted: 03 July 2025 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | 8
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This thread was not begun to be negative about Dave Cockrum, and the discussion has been respectful, except for a single short post, even if variously opinionated, which is fine (like the thread about the late Jim Shooter).
JB isn't being uncharitable or unfair, and nobody else really has been either. The topic isn't a happy one, but that's life. In as much as this is the only place on the internet where John Byrne himself can express his thoughts and feelings directly and without being manipulated and misstated, all the better that he says what he would like to say right here.
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ron bailey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 October 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 1284
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| Posted: 03 July 2025 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | 9
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Apparently "bookend" and "cap" have been misinterpreted to mean "suspend" or "end". My meaning was whatever else gets said in the thread let's come away at the end of the day with what really matters, I'm the last person to try to silence anyone.My point was, regardless of what may have been said or not said by whom in endless unreliable back-and-forth, what was more poignant is what was done, which was one creative going out of his way to provide work to another based presumably on mutual respect and an admiration for his talent and professionalism. The negativity referred to was right there in the quote in the Instagram post that started this thread. I was contrasting that with the gesture that I found so much more moving.
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Joe Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6705
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| Posted: 03 July 2025 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | 10
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As a GM/HR/Jack of All Trades, dealing with a staff of over 50 people every
day, at the same job for over 25 years, I have found one thing to be
constant.
Everybody needs a villain.
It is rare that even the nicest person you know is free of some imaginary
dream of vengeance connected to a moment of denied desires.
As the decision maker, I have to crush as many aspirations as I grant due to
talent and availability.
So, kudos to Archie for doing the right thing, kudos to Dave for getting the
spaceship off the ground, and kudos to JB for inserting the plutonium hard
drive at the right moment. They created something so fantastic that we still
think about how it made us feel almost every day 50 years later.
JB, you’ve always handled yourself with such class in this matter, and the
gratefulness is readily apparent through the years.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6976
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| Posted: 03 July 2025 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 11
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It would make me sad if we had to lock down a thread on Dave Cockrum.
There's never been anything but praise for him here.
I take B. Kliban's attitude toward cartoonists, where he jokingly imagined them being escorted down the street by uniformed thugs and entourage. The world is poorer for not getting it.
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ron bailey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 October 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 1284
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| Posted: 03 July 2025 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | 12
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LOLAre we clear them that no one is asking to take down this thread or speaking ill of Dave Cockrum?
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